Author Topic: Bullet Performance  (Read 827 times)

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Offline insanelupus

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Bullet Performance
« on: May 27, 2007, 11:28:06 PM »
Ordinarily, I am not much of a proponent of premium bullets.  The reason for this is I simply don’t believe, under “normal” circumstances, that a premium bullet is necessary in many situations.  I really don’t have any beef against premium bullets and there are certainly those that believe they are a necessity and others that like them for the “insurance policy“ aspect.  I will not argue that point, as most of those individuals have used them with great success. 

When using a magnum caliber (which I will arbitrarily define as a cartridge that starts pushing the limits of the 3000 feet per second category) for big game, I think there is an understandable desire for these premium bullets.  Basically, when these calibers are used on game that is close, especially inside the 100 yard mark, non premium bullets tend to fragment.  The idea behind the premium bullet is that it combines expansion with penetration.  I tend to shoot “standard” cartridges and don’t often concern myself with these magnum rounds.

I can also foresee a circumstance where using a light for game cartridge could require the use of a premium bullet.  This is a particularly touchy subject on many bulletin boards, but I really don’t have a dog in this fight either.  I’ve shot whitetail deer with a .223 and while it did work on several occasions, I’m not likely to repeat the endeavor.  It will work, as long as the hunter does his job properly.  I also have a friend, that due to medical necessity, uses a .243 for elk.  It’s under these conditions, I can understand using a premium bullet to ensure the bullet remains intact and penetrates the animal. 

In light of the premium versus standard argument I tend to believe both have their merits.  In extreme circumstances the premium is nearly required I would think.  And, premium bullets do, in some ways provide for some insurance, under certain shots and circumstances.   I also think there is a downside to premium bullets as well, besides price and a reluctance for many to practice much with these bullets, the wound channels can, in some circumstances, be smaller than hoped for.  But, if a hunter is using a “standard” caliber, “reasonable” distances, with “appropriate” shot presentations, many cup and core bullets will serve admirably.  Note that the words in quotes are all user defined and are certainly open for interpretation from hunter to hunter.  In the interest of discussion (not argument I hope) I present the following.

On May 5th of this year, I shot my first black bear, a gorgeous cinnamon phase.  It wasn’t a particularly large bear, measuring five feet one inch and being a spring bear probably was only about 150-175 pounds (average for NW Montana).  The range was 28.5 yards and it was a downward angle of approximately 45 degrees.  The bear was quartering away and the bullet entered the chest, behind the near side leg at the top portion of the lower third of the chest.  The bullet entered the chest, took out a lung and the bottom of the heart and exited between it’s paws, through the sternum and imbedded itself in an old, closed logging road.  The bear made a short run of about 15 yards, went up a tree, only to fall out and within about 60 seconds had expired.  The carnage from the bullet was massive, spraying blood, lung and heart tissue everywhere.  The entrance wound was caliber sized and the exit wound was approximately the size of a Kennedy half-dollar.  Ten days later I went back to the site with a metal detector and recovered the bullet.  We had a 4/10ths of an inch of rain that week and there was still a stain from all the blood the bear lost in the road.  The road consisted mostly of gravel and dirt and had been blasted out of the rock cliff face I had been standing on.

I shot the bear with a Remington 700, chambered in .35 Whelen.  The Remington has a 24” barrel and sports a white bead front sight and a Lyman 57 rear aperture sight.  I hand loaded the Whelen with Remington Brass, CCI Large Rifle Primers, IMR 4064 powder and a 250 grain Speer Hot-Cor bullet.  From my barrel, with my load I obtain a muzzle velocity just shy of 2450 feet per second. 

It was easy enough to find the bullet.  When the metal detector sang out, there was an obvious 2” wide shallow divot in the road.  Using a small pack shovel (I was two miles back behind a locked gate, on foot when I shot the bear) I dug down approximately two inches and turned the shovel over.  Lying on top of the overturned pile was a stack of lead and copper.  Since the bullet was stacked in the dirt, one atop the other, I can only assume that the two pieces separated after the impact with the hard road and rocks.  The lead core was pealed all the way back as was the copper cup.  After cleaning all the dirt that I could off of them, the pieces weighed 125 grains on my RCBS scale. 

This, to me, is about as extreme of bullet testing in real world application that a person can get for standard calibers.  The bullet obviously penetrated well, did not expand until inside the animal slightly (and became more pronounced, probably upon exit when encountering the sternum) and then smashing into a rock/hard pack logging road (keep in mind it had been blasted from the face of a cliff).  When I shot the bear the spray of blood and tissue was immediate and apparent.  I have shot a lot of deer and I have never seen such an amount of immediate blood loss before. 

In my mind, this bullet performed admirably, especially at such close range.  It entered, expanded and exited, encountered a hard flat surface and still retained 50% of it’s weight.  I prefer medium to large caliber weapons, with normal to heavy for caliber bullets at “standard” for cartridge velocities.  (This particular load is a bit hotter than I tend to load, and falls in the upper end of most load data.  It actually exceeds by a grain or two some data and falls a grain or two below max in others, while others say it is right at the top end.  In my rifle it shows no pressure signs with the primer, the bolt lifts easily and accuracy is superb.)

I’d be interested to see what other’s take is on this bullet and it’s performance.  I have included a picture of the bullet and what remains of it.  On the left is the copper cup (interior base view of where the core was seated) and on the right is the lead core (base view where it would have mated with the copper cup).  (Keep in mind that when recovered these two were more or less mated, and fell in two pieces when I extracted them from the ground.  They had just a slight bit of dirt between them on the edges, but not in the center between them.  Again, I believe it did not separate until impact with the ground.) 

In the end, this bullet did what I wanted.  It killed the animal, fully penetrated, and left a sizeable exit wound to bleed out of for blood trailing, while leaving relatively little blood shot meat.  But, because I enjoy debates and I’m always interested what other hunters/shooters opinions are, I’m curious.  How would you view this bullet’s performance?



.358” 250 Grain Speer Hot-Cor


Bear 5’ 1” Long

"My feeling is this, give him pleanty of time, pleanty of birds, and a little direction, and he'll hunt his heart out for me.  That's all I ask." 

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: Bullet Performance
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2007, 04:20:07 AM »
It seems to me the bullet did what you wanted. If you shoot several more bears you'll know better if the bullet is reliable. I'm not in the anti-premium bullet camp but I'm more middle of the road about them. They have thier place and if you want to use them because they are more accurate for you or for any other reason it pleases you go for it.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline rickt300

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Re: Bullet Performance
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2007, 05:01:40 AM »
I have never had a Speer Hotcor bullet fail to perform properly and I have pushed them a bit past 3000 fps. I intend to use the same 250 grain bullet in my Whelen at just about the same velocity on the big feral hogs on my lease. Many of which are over 300 pounds. It is a thrill to sneak up on them after dark and shoot at close range. As far as the "bullet failure" issue I have had two that I could call serious. A 250 grain Sierra 338 BTSP out of a 338 Win magnum that did not expand on an elk at 450 yards and a 130 grain Prohunter out of a 270 that cratered on an antelopes shoulder at around 30 feet. I have had several bullets that did not fully penetrate an elk but still killed quickly so I don't call that bullet failure.
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Bullet Performance
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2007, 06:28:47 AM »
IMO, the only way the bullet could have done more was to sell popcorn in the nickle seats.  There are those that will scream it was a bullet failure since the core and cup (perhaps) seperated.  But that certainly is not my take.  You sent it after the bear and it fetched the bear.  End of story.
When I traveled out west to hunt and had restricted time, I used premium bullets. --Understand to me a Nosler Partition and a Speer Grand Slam is a premium bullet.  I've never used one of the boutique bullets that supposedly dress and draw the game and call the packing house with your expected time of arrival. -- I did it for the warm, fuzzy feeling.  The sense of security.  In over 15 years, I never shot a head of game --antelope, mulies, elk-- that couldn't have been fetched with a hornady/speer/remington standard bullet.  BUT, if I were going elk hunting tomorrow, I be poking some 200gr NP's into some .300Winnie cases tonight. :D 
I am a firm believer in that if you are approaching 3000fps with a hunting load, you need more weight not more speed.  Folks that want to take a light-for-calibre bullet and drive it at some rediculous warp speed and then scream about bullet failure are pretty clueless.

Offline J. J. Kelly

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Re: Bullet Performance
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2007, 07:56:48 AM »
Hi,

I like to shoot alot and I like to hunt with bullets that I use all the time. I used a 30-06
with 165 gr. nosler solid base from 1977 to 1981. The deer that I shot and ran aways',
was poor shot placement (my fault). All the deer that I have shot since died on the spot.
I have been using a .308 win. with 165 gr. (trophy bonded bullets), is it the bullet.  No,
I'm older, wiser, better shot placement, more practiced and don't take shots I can't make.
Animals bigger than deer, I have a .338 win. mag., 9.3x62m/m, and .458 win. mag. and I
only use premium bullets when I have too.  I use these bigger calibers at slower speeds
with heavy bullets to make up for not being super constructed.  The last animal I shot was
a 300 lb. wild hog, big tusks, all ready wounded by someone else, fighting two hunting dogs,
we were one foot apart in thick brush and 1 shot from my .458 put him down.  The bullet
was a 405 gr. rem. (for 45-70 at 1400 fps.).  My load was 70.0 grs of H-322 pushing the
bullet at 2200 fps. Cheap bullet but it still came out the other side.

Offline dw06

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Re: Bullet Performance
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2007, 01:11:16 PM »
I'd say it performed very well indeed. ;) I used the 165gr speer hot core bullet in my 06s for many years,and still would be untill they changed it somewhere around 1990 and nade it an even better bullet by making the jacket thicker and tapered.My rifles shot then into 3/4 inch groups at 100yards,untill they were changed and now are about 1 3/4 inch groups.If I had only known would have got a couple thousand stocked up.
Oh that is one nice looking bear,I always liked the looks of them in the cinnamon phase.
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Offline Blammer

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Re: Bullet Performance
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2007, 02:18:23 PM »
Great looking bear!

Nice story.

Great bullet performance. It's a keeper.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Bullet Performance
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2007, 05:47:02 PM »
First of all, congrats are in order for your Bear, great job!!!! I would love to take a Cinnamon, but most Bears in my area are Black, so not a good chance. He is a beautiful animal!!

How do I view the performance of the bullet you ask? I say, it did very good & with a fairly heavy bullet of this caliber at moderate speed, I would expect that. This is a good match of bullet/cartridge to the game. I hope that no one thinks they would need a premium bullet for a 175-200 pound animal, be it a Deer, Black Bear or Hog with CAREFUL placement, which is the only way to shoot an animal, premium or not. For that matter, I feel the same for a 400 pound animal as well, if a fairly heay bullet at moderate velocities is used. 

I agree with you that both std. & premium bullets have their merits.

And I agree with you that for rounds over 3000 fps, a premium makes sense for some hunts. Some don't want to use these rounds & that is cool with me. But also, some folks don't need nor can effectively take advantage of the extra range afforded by these rounds. That is up to the person's abilities & his equipment, I can use the extra range offered & have the equipment, so I take advantage of it. Now before any keyboard D. Boone's out there say I should ALWAYS get closer, spare it! I have killed more than my share of Deer @ less than 10 yards with Bow, Gun or MZ. So, yes you can have your cake and eat it & I don't really use my 300WM and others as much as std. rounds with std. bullets, but I know when I might gain from the extra range & use accordingly. So that is reason number (1.) for me SOMETIMES using a premium bullet.

As far as a debate goes, I don't see a need. You put forth the idea that for some cases a premium would make sense & I agree. Any experienced hunter would understand this and those that don't understand it would never see a need for a premium bullet anyway.
Which leads me to reason #2 & you said it well: "And premium bullets do, in some ways provide for some insurance, under certain shots & circumstances." Yes indeed, in fact closer to assurance in some more extreme situations than mere insurance. Let's look at your cartridge, the 35Whelen. I believe you can take all American game with this rd, granted I would rather have bigger for a Bison or Brown Bear, but it will work. Now, the 250 Speer would take a Brown Bear, but a wiser bet would be to use a prmium bullet, I would feel much better with a NP, TSX or TB any day. Which would you want to bust a Brownie's shoulder? 1,000# bad boy instead of a 200# animal? A big reason number 2 I think!!

(3) In some guns you might find a premium bullet that is just plain more accurate. Usually a gun that shoots a premium well will often shoot a std bullet or 2 well also, but sometimes not. This is happening alot with the Nos. Accubond. I know of more than 1 rifle that shoot it better than all others tried & alot were tried. When this happens, it is reason enough for me & alot of other people as well.
Bullet cost is not an issue to me within reason if it is not one of my volume shooters like my 308 or 223. The bullet cost is a small part of the cost of a hunting trip. I am going to WY. this fall it appears & the Gas prices have me alot more concerned than bullet cost.

So there are reasons for some people to use premium bullets, nothing to argue about as these are objective facts that most experienced hunters
already know. These situations are a minority of overall shooting & I am glad, because I shoot alot of bullets.

Again, congrats & you have a good set up for most Big Game hunting. May your Whelen harvest many more!!!!

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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Bullet Performance
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2007, 02:22:05 PM »
A Speer 250g Hot-Cor at 2450fps is a pretty lethal combination.  As testified to by the bear.

Non one can tell with any certainty how much weight the bullet lost in the bear and how much was lost in the dirt.  Same thing with the jacket separation - just when did it occur?

If it was my bullet and I had recovered it from the bear, 50% weight retention would not make me very happy unless it had taken out a LOT of bone.  I suspect, though, a fair amount was lost in the 'hard road and rocks'.
Coyote Hunter
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Offline rickt300

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Re: Bullet Performance
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2007, 03:05:42 PM »
I like a little weight loss, even fifty percent as long as it exits is fine. In the Speer Hotcor's I have recovered from game they usually retain at least70 percent or a bit more. This judging from a great many 180 grain 30 caliber bullets fired from my 30-06. The 200 grain Speer Hotcor was also excellent from my 300 Winchester magnum pushed around 2900 fps. I seldom use velocities much over 2800 fps anymore and intentionally use 2600 fps even when more is possible in my deer rifles. I get great performance with almost every bullet I use.
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