Christian Brothers

[Elijah Gunn]

I have always wondered how the christian men on both sides could kill each other in battle. As a christian myself I dont know if the issues that brought the war would be enough for me to take up arms against my countrymen,and kill some who I am sure are also my brother in Christ. A tough thing to have to answer for come judgement day.(Side note, I am not a pacifist. I am a U.S. Army veteran.)
Does anyone know about the biblical / spiritual arguments that each side used to justify the war?
Thanks, Mark

[steelshooter68]

It does seem a contradiction that two sides in a war supposedly christian would fight each other.Many in the North were against the war and wanted to let the South secede,i.e.they understood and believed in states rights.It perplexed some in the South that our "brothers"would invade our country.Jackson lamented that he never thought he would see the day that an American president would send Federal troops to invade a state.After American Revolution in 1783 The Treaty of Paris recognized the 13 States as such "to be free sovereign and independent states..." Not all who fought in the South were christian,not all who fought from the North were christian. It was not a Holy War. It was not a Civil War. The South was "forced to defend against an aggressive invading force.The South did not until absolutely put to the task invade the North,and then not to gain control of the federal government. I am a christian.If you invade my home,I will kill you,if I have to. I am not a pacifist. Being a christian does not mean you have to be a pacifist.Being meek does not mean you allow other people to walk on you.Being meek means that you do not exact vengeance upon others,hence the Latin on the Great Seal of the Confederacy."Deo Vindice". Oh I know Johhny come lately scholars have laughed and made big fun about how "God has avenged,see how the South paid?" It is clear that the South wanted to remain as our founding fathers intended,a Christian nation.Can we still be found guilty of being a Christian nation?Is there any evidence that we are?Are we now a greater nation?"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord;and the people he has chosen for his own inheritance."You be the judge. And BTW if you took the confederate states today,and broke them away from the union they would constitute the 3rd richest economy in the world,Texas alone would be the 6th richest.

[ironfoot]

It was a rebellion to perpetuate slavery.
Lincoln talked about it in his Copper's Union speech.
You can read his speech here:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

That speech, and his debates with Douglas, identified Lincoln as anti-slavery.
So when Lincoln got elected the South seceded, in order to preserve slavery where it existed and in hopes of expanding it to the new territories.

You can read a summary here:

http://www.washtimes.com/civilwar/20030822-085758-4689r.ht

In his first inaugural address, Lincoln stated he would not end slavery where it already existed, in order to appease the South try to avoid the secession.
You can read the speech here:

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html

Lincoln believed he was elected President of the whole counrty. (That is, after all, what elections are supposed to be about, to choose leaders who will manage the government. Just because the elected President was an anti-slavery northerner for a change, the South had no right to take it's ball and go home.) Lincoln felt it was his duty to preserve the country as a whole.

The war itself began when Confederates illegally attacked a federal fort. You can read about that here:

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/america/civilwar/cw26.htm

The motivation northerners to fight can be found in the lyrics of the Battle Hymn of the Republic. You can read the lyrics here:

http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/bathymn.shtml

The last verse is especially telling:

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

[steelshooter68]

I am very aware of Emperor Lincoln's "Cooper's" Union speech and have read it before.I think you may want to read it again,a little closer this time. I am also quite aware of the union accounts of what happened at Fort Moultrie and Fort Sumter.I did read your links to the full and thank you for providing this information.Now if you would be so kind as to search out a library that can provide you with "The Real Lincoln" by Thomas Dilorenzo, and "The South Was Right" by James Ronald Kennedy these books may shed a little more light on the subject of the War of Southern Independence.
    The "Battle Hymn" is quite inspiring, and would be even more so had it not been "sounding brass and tinkling cymbals"
       I would finally like to say I have no desire to bandy trite words with you.I have looked at many posts in this forum and was glad to find a forum where the truth about our history could be spoken. I have read many of your replies and quite frankly I can't believe you haven't been banned on many occasions.I am a member of several other forums and have never met your equal,congrats.

[Elijah Gunn]

Thanks for the replies, but when I asked for biblical reasons I meant chapter and verse type reasons. While I believe slavery to be a bad thing I do not know of any biblical prohibition to it. In fact there are regulations on how it was to be practiced in the old testament.(please note I'm writing this off the top of my head so if you can correct me please do.)From what I know the south by and large did not practice slavery according to biblical precepts. In the bible a slave could only be held for up to 7 yrs. not the lifelong kind the south did. Also in the bible they were instructed to treat their slaves humanely. I've read about slaveholders that were on their deathbed begging and pleading for forgiveness from their slaves.
The north, (and now I'm talking about the whole union) blew it when the supreme court said that blacks were only 3/5 human. In MY  opinion that was when the die was cast and we as a nation were ready for God's  judgement.
Humbly, Mark

[steelshooter68]

Am reading your post, and reply, very carefully now.Will reply later today with more info.Comparing your post and reply and suspect you are a troll (trolling).This kind of business is common in about every forum I have ever been involved with, and I have no time nor patience for such nonsense.
      If your post is sincere then I deeply apologize,and would tell you to do a google search on "Stonewall Jackson christian".You will definately find some very good info there if you use caution.I zipped through it at work last night and found a great deal of info.I will say this, often times men have used God when it  was convenient to further their cause.I can name at least one in a very high office in this land.BTW thank you for your service.

[steelshooter68]

I have been busy today,it being my wife's B-day.I have managed to do some study and cross reference and will now give you some info that surprised even me.
         First I would encourage you to read "The South Was Right" by James Ronald Kennedy,and "The Real Lincoln" by Dr.Thomas Dilorenzo.These 2 books are the foundation to a much greater understanding of the subjects covered in this forum.On my list to read is "Stonewall Jackson: The Black Man's Friend" by Richard Williams Jr and James Robertson Jr.As a matter of fact do a search on the history channel and the forumsthere, of this book and you will find a great deal of info on the entire subject of Blacks in the Confederacy.It is a fact that the number of blacks both free and bond that marched with Jackson numbered in the THOUSANDS! Jim Lewis was portrayed as a servant of Jackson in the movie "Gods and Generals",he was in fact a free man!
       On the subject of blacks being 3/5 of a human,I hope you spoke that in error.That quote came dirrectly out of Jesse Jackson's mouth....litterally. Jesse might also be sick to find out that he may be decended from one of the many blacks, that so revered Jackson,that they took his name!Mr. Jackson is also, in my oppinion,no more a Reverend, than I am a doorknob.Talk about something to answer for on judgement day.
        Before I give the final answer I will say this, I do not,nor have I ever condoned slavery,owned a slave,hated Jews,hated homosexuals,or ever been involved with any faction of the Nazi's that call themselves the KKK.Google "slavery in the bible".You will find a great deal of scripture on the subject,and more than you could have imagined in the New Testament.One of the best sources of info....? A mean little site called evilbible.com,sponsored by atheists (chuckle).I prefer to read from the King James but for our purposes what they have is fine.There are some other good and bad sites there too.For a summary Lev 25:44-46,Ex 21:2-6,Ex21:7-11,Eph 6:5,1Tim 6:1-2,Luke12:47-48,Luke is the words of Christ in red and technically a parable.Here are some that the atheists don't want you to read:Col 4:1,Col 3:22,Tit 2:9,1Peter 2:18,Rom 14:4.
        Some slave owners were evil men,some were true born again christians that treated their slaves very well.There were many free blacks in the South,there were even free black plantation owners that owned slaves.That my friend is a fact many people in our society want to hide.It is also a fact that the slaving fleet was from New England,all of them.
        I have personally stood in the museum of the Confederacy in Richmond and read a list of black men that rode with Jackson's troops,both free and bond.There was a detailed listing of station and skill and what they were PAID!
        Hope this helps.

[ironfoot]

How many books do you think have been written about Lincoln? Most recognize him as a visionary. Some take his positions out of historical context in order to trash him. Reading two books that trash Lincoln, out of the thousands about him, won't give one a fair understanding.

Regarding slavery, there is a big difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Christians follow the New Testament.
Christ summarized the law in two principles:

(Mt 22:37-40)
‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”



If you love your neighbor, you don't enslave him.

[ironfoot]

Steelshooter68
You stated:
"I would finally like to say I have no desire to bandy trite words with you.I have looked at many posts in this forum and was glad to find a forum where the truth about our history could be spoken. I have read many of your replies and quite frankly I can't believe you haven't been banned on many occasions.I am a member of several other forums and have never met your equal,congrats."

Why would I be banned? Simply for stating opinions that differ from those of Confederate apologists?
Scary that you think I should be banned for that.
I simply disagree with your version of what the "truth" is.
I have tried to use links to historical documents to back up my opinions.

[Elijah Gunn]

Steelshooter68, thank you very very much for your thoughtful and useful response. No ,I'm not a troll,but I understand your caution. It's gonna take some time for me to get through what you have listed so i probably wont be posting on this again for awhile.
For sure I know there were kind slave owners,and free blacks who fought for the confederacy.
I thought that in  the Dred Scot case was where the  S,Court said blacks were only 3/5 human. Guess I'm just another victim of revisionist history from the (govt.)public schools.
I'm really glad you found info that has to do with Stonewall Jackson.He's become a hero of mine since I saw Gods and Generals,and read a short biography about him.
I also just read through the Gen. Sherman quote posts and I agree with one who said that wars are basically driven by economics. Been thinking bout that for awhile myself. Makes me want to make a t-shirt that says,"The Bankers Win Every War".
Thanks again!  Mark

[steelshooter68]

There have been many books written on communism and socialism touting their many marvelous benefits to a society.There are also many books on same that, tell the results, and evils done by such policies.My friend results and truth are usually known best to those who have been there and done it,whether you are on the receiving end or the doling out end.
      There are no "versions" of truth,simply the truth. Nothing wrong with stating your opinion,just don't try and pass it off for fact.I have not suggested you be banned for stating your opinion.You should be banned for personal attacks,and trolling.I din't just jump into these discussions without reading all the posts." Does anyone here still love America?"is a blatant attempt to pick a fight.Shenanigans like that are the reason forums die,but I suspect sir you would like nothing less than just that.I would like to see some people come back to this forum.
        I see you are a theologian on top of all the other subjects in which you are so well versed and well read.Show me a christian who simply follows the New Testament,and I'll show you a man who does not posess what he professes.Matthew 5:17"Think not that I am come to destroy the law,or the prophets:I am not come to destroy ,but to fulfill."Read the whole thing,don't just grab what suits your fancy,or suits your purpose.I have used 4 bibles since I was 5 years old,3 of those will no longer hold their pages,the bible is not a subject you will want to jerk me around with.Now before you tell me that the Bible is for no private interpretation,let me warn you that you do not need to tell me that.The Bible interprets itself.I can not and will not try and use the Bible to justify slavery, no more than you can use it to refute slavery.
         And finaly,I really don't think you will be happy,until someone here tells you,"yep ironfoot you are right it was our plan all along to fight to the very last man in the South ta keep dem n---as boun fo eva! fo eva! I tell ya! and we won be pleest til we put em back in da chayns!" And the entire forum gets shut down,and you post the last thread sayin "We WON!"How many of the things that have been cited in this forum argueing the South's case have you actually read?Is it all a lie?

[Elijah Gunn]

Well, I finally made it back. Thanks again for all the help.
When I googled "slavery in the bible" I also came across some really good articles at wallbuilders.com . There is a great explanation of biblical slavery by Stephen McDowell, and an article on reasons why the South seceeded by David Barton.
 Please check them out.
 I can more clearly see now the motivations each side had in why they could go to war with each other.
Thank you all, Mark

[steelshooter68]

Mr Mcdowell makes some interesting observations but he is a little short on facts on some of the subject matter.The War of Northern Aggression did not free any slaves at all but simply left the entire South both white and black free and bond in unprecedented poverty.The North freed their slaves long before the War anyway,they did have a few "servants" though. If Lincoln thought he was ordained of God to free the slaves then why did he take occasion to make derogatory statements about them? A black man after the War had to post $1000 bond upon entering Lincoln's home state!Slavery was wrong! No question.Mr McDowell made no attempt to point out the black legislators in Mississippi before the War, but none afterward. Blacks served separate in the armed services of the United States for over a century,anyone want to tell me how that was the South's fault. Oh Mr Lincoln was assassinated! So his plan never came to fruition and once again we blame the South and must curtsy proper.NO SIR! If Mr Lincoln had lived he would have sent all of them back to Liberia(Mr McDowell was right about Liberia,To this day we keep a military presence there,and noone even cares why). Debate till the cows come home it will not matter.The same disease that felled the Roman Empire eats at us right now and is increasing geometrically,I'd get busy learning Chinese and     Spanish.

[nealglen37]

You rite................i agrees with ya steel shoota..................now pass me dem corn pon and sow belly................................I just luvs my sow belly.