38-55 BP question

[John Boy]

educate me, which is the "driving band"?

Look at the bullet from the nose to the base.  It is the 1st band at the end of the nose.  Look at the pictures you posted

[handirifle]

Oh, OK, I always called that the "crimp groove".

[handirifle]

Handi, does your bullet have 4 grease grooves and what does it weigh?

weight 335gr


Do me a favor if you would and take the following measurements:
... Length of bullet

1.310"

 ... Length from nose to leading edge of driving band

.645"

 ... Diameter of driving band

.379"

 ... Diameters of the grease groove bands - 1st - 2nd and 3rd
 
1. .340"
2. .340"
3. .340"
... Length of bullet from the nose to the grease groove band where the band is greater 373

.750"

You mentioned the base is 379

As for your breach seating of the bullet:
Harry Pope's recipe:
His 300gr bullet seated and engraved 1/16" in the leading bore cut
52fr FFg powder topped with a felt wad
Cartridge (not flared) seated with breach seater

As for your 62gr of powder ... I tried to put 62gr of FFg into a Starline 2.125 case.  Filled to the mouth and had 13.3grs of powder still in the pan. 
The choice is yours but I won't use 62 grs of powder

[handirifle]

Yep, looks like my powder volumes were way off.  I used the Lee dippers and got a bit over the 3.1cc in there with FFFg and the 3.1 is 49.1 so I'd guess right at 50gr, with enough room for the bullet as pictured, and about a .030" wad.

I was getting just 2.4cc in there with it seated to the driving band with the 335gr Snover, and 2.8cc with the 245gr seated to the driving band.

So if I use the 245 and cram about 50gr behind it, seated long, it ought to really zip.

I'll try the 335gr with this load in the near future as well.

I just gots to know!!!!!

[John Boy]

... Diameters of the grease groove bands - 1st - 2nd and 3rd
 1. .340"
2. .340"
3. .340"

Handi, are these measurements the band diameters or the grease groove cuts, which would be the measurements of the bullet shaft diameter?

The GG band diameters should be in the 375 - 380 range.  Otherwise, the middle part of the bullet will never obturate (expand) into the groove of the barrel
And much thanks for taking the time to provide the measurements

[DocO]

Hey guys didn't mean to start an argument here. Just trying to take in any info on this round and make the best of it. [I'm new to this caliber].
John Boy
My mistake on the bullet weight. It IS a Lyman 378674 at 335grs. The loads I'm trying right now are.
WW brass 2.078 length
Fed LMR primers
42grs 2F and also 42grs 3F
Lyman 378674 bullet [335grs.]
OAL 2.775
As I said before at 100yrds it looked pretty good just need to get to a range with more yardage.
Doc

[handirifle]

Doc
No arguing going on.  Just gathering facts.

John
It is the center of the grease groove, the bands are .379, same as the base.  I must have misunderstood what you asked for.

[John Boy]

Doc, nice to see back on the thread you started.  Looking at your recipe (believe IMHO a good one), give these suggestions a try:
1.  With the Federal LMR ... put a newspaper wad over the primer hole.
2.  Or use a CCI BR2 - Federal LR or Reminington 9 1/2 primer.  There is too much fire coming out of a LMR primer using black powder

When you try your recipe at 200 or plus, believe you are going to like the results.  Post up how it flies 

PS Doc, not argument on your side.  Just tell the person, for me, that gave you bad advise ... they should check their long johns for brown stains 

[John Boy]

Handi, thanks for the update.  I like the characteristics of this bullet.  Believe I'm gonna order a 100 or so from Momma Sage at Sagebrush Products    At 1:20 alloy, they should bump up nicely.  Also, the BC of 333 and the bullet length calculate nicely for a 1:18 twist barrel 

[handirifle]

Can you share the specs on yours?  Mine didn't stabilize in my barrel.  Was thinking of trying them in my 375 Winchester.  It has a faster twist. 1-16 I believe.

[John Boy]

Can you share the specs on yours?  Mine didn't stabilize in my barrel.

As I previously said ... "Believe I'm gonna order a 100 or so"
re: "didn't stabilize in my barrel." ... I don't have a clue what you are talking about using the words ... "stabilize in barrel"
They only way to determine what a bullet has done in the barrel is to recover it, do visual observation and measurements AFTER you have slugged the barrel of the rifle
Rule of thumb:  Bullet diameter should be 0.002 greater than the groove diameter of the barrel.  If all 'fits' ... then you have to go back to the reload drawing board and determine what you did wrong with the overall reload recipe.

[handirifle]

Well I guess this must be my ENGLISH lesson.  OK they didn't stabilize AFTER LEAVING MY BARREL.  In other words they were slightly key holing.

I DID slug my barrel, a long time ago, but didn't think I needed to share everything I have done in the last post?

Don't worry about the specs WHEN YOU GET THEM.  Good grief.

[Ireload2]

>>>Also, the BC of 333 and the bullet length calculate nicely for a 1:18 twist barrel <<<

What formula did you use for your calculation?

[John Boy]

Ireload2, the quick one ... http://www.handloads.com/calc/  It's real close to doing it the long way
The bullet that calculates to a 17.65 twist using black powder is the old Ideal 357166 - 330gr - .377" diameter and 1.165" long.  If the mold was available, it could be 'beagled' up to 380 for an even closer BC to 1:18
Unfortunately, Lyman has no plans to put the mold back into production.  I've been looking for the mold with no success but have no desire to find an Ideal #36 Handbook and then have the drawing done as a custom mold

FYI: Don Miller did the bullet calculation for black powder loading data.  It is in the Spring 2007 article of the Black Powder Cartridge News.  His new formula replaces Greenhill's that calculates for smokeless loads only

[quickdtoo]

Just in case no one has checked em, NEI has some molds that may be of interest to you, here's one of the .379" bullets, they also have some in .380"

Tim

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

[DocO]

John Boy
 I was able to try several loads with different primers this after noon. What a difference the primers made. I stuck with the same over all length, the same powder grain but tried different combinations using Fed LR and LMR primers with 3F and 2F powder. The 2F with LR primers seem to do the trick, 1 1/2'' at 100yrds. That was down from about 2 1/2'' to 3'' at that same yardage. I know the real test will be yardage out past 100. Thanks for the advice. I would like to know. What do you mean by beagled or beagling a mold and how is it done? You know I've learned more here the last few days then I have the past 3 years on my own with my 45-70. Doc

[John Boy]

Doc, give those reloads of yours a test run using CCI BR2 primers with a newspaper wad over the primer hole.  This recipe may equal or better the 1 1/2 group.  BTW, this size group @ 100yds (hope it was with iron sights) ... is not shabby!

OK, beagling a mold:  Some molds drop a bullet depending on the alloy ratio of choice that has a base diameter less than desired ... ie, one wants a 380 base bullet from a 378 mold.  So, go to the hardware store and buy a roll of aluminum tape used in the HVAC industry.  Then to the mold half that does not have the mold pins, cut a 1/8" strip of the tape and apply it vertically to the mold half (close to the cavity).  Squeeze the mold halves tightly to press the tape securely on the mold half.

When you cast using the tape ... you will increase the size of the bullet driving band and base .

I have a Lee 457-500-3R mold that now drops 460 base bullets and the Lyman 378674 from 379 to 380/381.  Then I lube/size the bullets with custom size H&I dies or pan lube them without running them through the lube/sizer