Author Topic: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?  (Read 1157 times)

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Offline Tack Driver

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How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« on: June 27, 2007, 11:19:29 AM »
I am looking at getting into black powder and am a little confused. I am trying to figure out just how loud is loud enough. I want a really big, hurt your chest, scare the hell out of everybody in the neighborhood boom. Is a .50 to .69 caliber gun going to get me this effect or do I need to go up to golf ball size bores to get there?

I don't want to spend alot of money on my first gun until I am sure I am going to enjoy this hobby. (I know I will because all loud stuff makes me giggle like a school boy.) So I am looking for a cannon in the 250-350 $ range.

Also, I am a competent wood worker, and could build my own carrige. Does anyone have plans for a nice revolutionary or civil war era field carriage?

Offline Rickk

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2007, 12:40:40 PM »
a 69 caliber will dissapoint you if you are looking for effect.

1" is a nice starting point and longer barrels are louder.

Brooks makes an AWSESOME 1 inch brass naval barrel.... several of us have them.. they are louder than a 12 gauge for sure, and built really rugged. They go for a tiny bit over the upper end of your $price$ range, but are woth the extra beer money.

Rick

Offline Tack Driver

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2007, 01:42:09 PM »
So longer barrel length is louder/deeper? I didn't even think about that.

Should I be more concerned with load capacity or bore?

Offline Rickk

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2007, 01:48:04 PM »
both. If the bore is short (mortar), a blank can't really burn well. Mortars are somewhat dissapointing for blanks.

If your length to bore diameter is 8 -10 x, you will be significantly louder than 2-4 x

An advantage of being in the 1 inch or larger bore is that you can pre-package charges in aluminum foil and loading is easier. I guess you can try the same technique in sub-1 " calibers, but it gets a bit impractical at some point.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2007, 02:56:41 PM »
Boom is also limited by  too long a barrel - unless you have an excess of powder.  The mortars (soda-can bore) with 2' long tubes (like those we DON'T talk about here) have great range, efficiency and a low, quiet 'thunk' because all the powder has burned by the time the can exits the tube.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Artilleryman

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2007, 05:08:01 PM »
In my experience Tack, the smaller bore guns have a sharper sound, and the big bore guns have a deeper boom.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Tack Driver

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2007, 05:31:16 PM »
Thanks for all the help guys. Yes, a "boom" is what I am after. I have plenty of rifles/shotguns, so I don't want something that sounds like them. I want something that SOUNDS LIKE A CANNON!

So with a golf ball sized bore (1 11/16" right), I need roughly a 17" barrel for a strong report?

What about plans for building a field carrige? Does anyone know where to get a decent rev. war or civil war pattern?

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2007, 12:03:48 AM »
Thanks for all the help guys. Yes, a "boom" is what I am after. I have plenty of rifles/shotguns, so I don't want something that sounds like them. I want something that SOUNDS LIKE A CANNON!

So with a golf ball sized bore (1 11/16" right), I need roughly a 17" barrel for a strong report?

What about plans for building a field carrige? Does anyone know where to get a decent rev. war or civil war pattern?

1-11/16 = 1.6875  I'd go with 1.700 if you are going to launch golf balls.

You could do a 8-10" bbl howitzer - less velocity, more muzzle blast.

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Offline lesmoore

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2007, 02:49:27 PM »
Thanks for all the help guys. Yes, a "boom" is what I am after. I have plenty of rifles/shotguns, so I don't want something that sounds like them. I want something that SOUNDS LIKE A CANNON!

So with a golf ball sized bore (1 11/16" right), I need roughly a 17" barrel for a strong report?

What about plans for building a field carrige? Does anyone know where to get a decent rev. war or civil war pattern?

I ordered a barrel from Missouri Cannon Works for $200+ $18 for shipping....  best deal I found so far...  I want another one-  so I'll keep looking.... If nothing else turns up I'll order another from Missouri.  Thx.

http://www.missouricannonworks.com/price_list.htm
Cannons      --  1/2  Scale Mountain Howitzer (Golf ball Bore)

Barrel is machined steel, outside diameter 3.5",  Length 17", Bore 1.73"

haiku:

          NOW...  is the fuse lit.
     Are you too near...  or too far?
          Bliss lives on the edge.

Offline lesmoore

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2007, 03:08:45 PM »
My shortest barrel is 8" for a golf ball... it was just an experiment and never got mounted.  It is LOUD.  The next ones I built were 16" and I like them much better. I just ordered the barrel above... 17".  To get LOUD you need to build some pressure.   If you use a "flour Burrito" like I mention below it wont matter is you barrel is a few thousands of an inch bigger than the golf ball.  You don't want it too tight.

My standard load for a golf ball cannon is 1 to 2 tablespoons of "Pyrodex RS"  or black powder, wrapped in aluminum foil, tamped into the barrel with a wooden dowel. Next:  3 to 6 tablespoons of all purpose flour (3/1 ratio to powder) wrapped in foil like a burrito tamped into the barrel tight.  This load is LOUD and can be fired as a blank or topped off with a golf ball.  The flour burns and adds smoke and the foil is destroyed.  Good Clean Fun!
haiku:

          NOW...  is the fuse lit.
     Are you too near...  or too far?
          Bliss lives on the edge.

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2007, 03:18:40 PM »
Lesmoore, How much by weight is 1-2 tablespoons of powder?  Is that heaping tablespoons or even tablespoons?  What granulation of blackpowder are you using?  Recommendations for loads should include weights and powder granulations for safety reasons. 
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline lesmoore

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2007, 03:30:44 PM »
Pyrodex is bigger by weight than black powder so it take about 1 1/2 tablespoon (or a heaping tablespoon) to equal a tablespoon of black powder.  A tablespoon is 1 fluid oz... works out to a little less than 1 oz by weight of black powder.
I'm not a rocket scientist.... but I've shot lots of golf balls in my back yard.   The point I was trying to make is you need some pressure or you are going to need more powder to get the same BOOM.  If you are shooting lead or concrete projectiles the pressures will be different.   I shoot golf balls and blanks.
haiku:

          NOW...  is the fuse lit.
     Are you too near...  or too far?
          Bliss lives on the edge.

Offline Tack Driver

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2007, 05:38:33 PM »
thanks for your input les....... I think I like the longer barrel, and now that you said that about liking the sound better, it kind of solidifies that. Is there much gain in going bigger than the 1.73 bore (for effect that is?)?

I still haven't found any field carriage plans. I am looking I guess for a half scale mt. howitzer plan. ??????

Offline lesmoore

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2007, 05:54:44 PM »
I have never shot anything bigger than a golf ball.   It gets expensive real fast to go bigger.
My experience is a golf ball cannon 'will change your mind'.....  whatever you were thinking before it went off will be replaced by something else. Instant ZEN.
haiku:

          NOW...  is the fuse lit.
     Are you too near...  or too far?
          Bliss lives on the edge.

Offline Double D

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2007, 06:51:29 PM »
Pyrodex is bigger by weight than black powder so it take about 1 1/2 tablespoon (or a heaping tablespoon) to equal a tablespoon of black powder.  A tablespoon is 1 fluid oz... works out to a little less than 1 oz by weight of black powder.
I'm not a rocket scientist.... but I've shot lots of golf balls in my back yard.   The point I was trying to make is you need some pressure or you are going to need more powder to get the same BOOM.  If you are shooting lead or concrete projectiles the pressures will be different.   I shoot golf balls and blanks.

Lesmore, I think the point that Norm is a trying to make is you need a more consistant method of determing how much powder you are using.  A table spoon my hold one fluid oz. but it sure isn't hold hold the mass of one ounce or one ounce avoirdupois.  They are two different units of measure.  A table spoon is very poor measuring device for measuring powder.

Cannon charges are so large that using standard volumetric tools allow for far to much variation one charge to the next. Cannon charges must be weighed to be consistant.

Trying to substitute Pyrodex for black powder by weight can be done but takes some work.  Weigh out the charge weight of the black powder charge your are duplicating.  Place that weighed charge in a volumetric measure and adjust the measure to hold that charge.  Dump the black powder out and refill the measure with pyrodex.   Then pour this powder on the scale and weigh.  I would do this several times and take the average of the charges thrown.  They won't be the same every time. .  Then in the future always weigh the powder on the scale using this standard weight.

Don't be lulled into a falses sense of secuity here and think you have no worries becasue you are only loading blanks.  The pressures are still there, that's what is making the boom.  Play safe.

One other note on booms.   You may not think you have much of a boom...get out in front of your gun and listen you might be surpised how loud you are. 

Offline lesmoore

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2007, 02:20:40 AM »
I'm sure like me, you've been doing this for a long time.  I've been shooting black powder and reloading smokeless cartridges for over 40 years.  I  do the work with  scales working up my loads and I also KNOW that NOBODY in their right mind weighs every charge.  Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a sign of insanity.  What is the point of a forum like this if the old timers can't share what they have learned from years of experience. I don't get my powder scale out to put sugar in my coffee... and once I've worked up a load I don't weigh every charge.  If I were trying to shoot 'minute of angle' groups with a golf ball I would be a little more precise.  Give us break here......  a few more or less grains of Pyrodex  in a golf ball cannon wont make much difference.  That may not be be 'politcally correct' or 'rocket science' but it is WISDOM gained from many years experience and experimentation.
haiku:

          NOW...  is the fuse lit.
     Are you too near...  or too far?
          Bliss lives on the edge.

Offline Rickk

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2007, 02:31:20 AM »
Lesmoore,

I found that with the larger powder grains, meauring by volume is very difficult. The larger grains to not pack consistantly. I was getting very erratic results in my mortar when trying to measure out 170 grains of cannon grade by volume. I finally weighed some samples and found about a +-15 percent variation from charge to charge.

So, I got myself an under $50 electronic scale that will weigh up to 3.6 ounces an also is capable of reading out directly in not only ounces, but grains and grams. I do weigh each charge when shooting projectiles. If I don't, my 100 yard target shooting turns into anywhere from 25 yards to 125 yards.

Rick

Offline lesmoore

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2007, 07:28:13 AM »
Sounds to me like you need a more consistent powder.  Do yourself a favor and pick up some Pyrodex RS.  Why handicap yourself with a poor quality product?  You don't seem to have a problem using a 21st century scale, yet you shy away from Pyrodex that's been around as long as I can remember. They put enough sulfur in it to make it smell and corrode  metal.  Do you shave with a straight razor?  As far as safely is concerned....   Pyrodex  wins  hands down....  it's not classed as an EXPLOSIVE or HAZMAT.  Do you store your powder in a vault as required by law?  Let's be safe.  ;)
haiku:

          NOW...  is the fuse lit.
     Are you too near...  or too far?
          Bliss lives on the edge.

Offline Rickk

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2007, 11:21:20 AM »
I have an 8" thick concrete walled ATF compliant building out back.

Pyrodex has it's uses, but it isn't designed for larger calibers. For over an inch you want to be thinking 1F and Cannon grade to keep the peak pressure down.

Pyrodex does not work well for blanks either... Hodgdon's own web site indicates that.

Personally, while I use pyrodex in a 50 caliber target rifle that prefers it, I really hate the acidic smell of it.

The smell of BP wins hands down in my mind... but to each his own.

For what it's worth, the following came from the Hodgdon web site...   "as a matter of official policy. Hodgdon Powder Co. has no data or recommendations for use of either Triple Seven and Pyrodex or blackpowder in any cannon."


Offline lesmoore

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Re: How far do I need to go to get LOUD?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2007, 03:41:04 PM »
Now Rick, to be fair the disclaimer actually says....  8)

WARNING - CANNON SHOOTING DISCLAIMER
Only cannons which have been manufactured by persons competent in ordinance construction and which have been inspected by a person qualified to determine fitness for firing may be suitable to be fired with either Triple Seven and Pyrodex or blackpowder. However, as a matter of official policy. Hodgdon Powder Co. has no data or recommendations for use of either Triple Seven and Pyrodex or blackpowder in any cannon.


"I have an 8" thick concrete walled ATF compliant building out back."(Rickk)
...  the last thing I want in my backyard is something to attract the ATF.  (Remember Ruby Ridge?  I'm less than 100 miles from Waco.) :o 
"just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me"   ;)  have a great 4th,  lesmoore

haiku:

          NOW...  is the fuse lit.
     Are you too near...  or too far?
          Bliss lives on the edge.