Author Topic: Negative Experience with State Reciprocal Agreements (Read 2258 times)

chucky52 · « **on:** July 24, 2007, 11:09:14 AM »

What good is a state reciprocal agreement if the reciprocating state's LEO's don't know their own laws.

I recently traveled to Pa. Before I went, I checked packing.org and my state license site. I downloaded a copy of the 2005 agreement signed by my governor and the Pa. attorney general and had it with me. Nevertheless, I met with a national historic site ranger, Philly policeman and a rent a cop (security guard). All three were armed. I asked if they were aware of reciprocal agreements for concealed carry and the look in their eyes was like, we got a felon on our hands. After assuring them I was not carrying, just wanted to find out what the law was, they relaxed and advised of very stiff penalties, jail, vehicle confiscation...

I am so glad I asked. The answer I got was what I feared, the wrong answer. I declared my handgun to the airline and tsa, things went too smoothly. I landed at the Philly airport and proceeded to a hotel and spent the subsequent week not carrying, despite my governors agreement with Pa. This was all very disconcerting. I know I was legal; but, I didn't want to spend a week of vacation plus $5,000 or more hiring an attorney to prove my case. This is my one and only trip to Pa. I can go elswhere and get better treatment.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #1 on:** July 24, 2007, 02:01:19 PM »

There's nothing quite as nice to have around as a well informed, dedicated, hard working LEO. On the other hand, an h.a. with a badge is a major headache.

Paul S · « **Reply #2 on:** July 24, 2007, 02:34:31 PM »

When I took the CCW class 3 years ago in South West MO the officer teaching the class warned us that you would carry at your own risk in St. Louis. He said the county sheriff was very opposed to CCW and he told stories of people being put on the ground and cuffed during simple traffic stops. If what he said is true then you can be treated differently from county to county much less going out of state. The Governor in MO that is trying to get a national CCW passed that would do away with all this mess.

jpsmith1 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 24, 2007, 03:42:25 PM »

Your problem was that you went to Philadelphia. Philly is a different entity. Something like a 'first class city'. The laws can be different there. I live on the other side of the state, north of Pittsburgh, so my knowledge is not first hand. Philly is VERY anti-gun and the local LEOs are likely to be that way as well.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:22:57 PM »

Come vacation here in New Hampshire, you'll have no problem. Vermont is even better, no permit necessary to carry concealed.

LEO · « **Reply #5 on:** July 25, 2007, 02:27:00 PM »

It varies from LEO to LEO, I couldn't start to tell you what states have reciprocal agreements because I really don't care. The way I do business is I operate on the assumption that if you have gone to the trouble to get a concealed carry permit from whatever state, you must be a fairly law abiding citizen in the first place. Based on this assumption, I don't care if you are carrying a firearm, I have enough heathens and thugs out there carrying concealed weapons to worry about the decent folks. Now I know all officers don't look at it that way but that is the way I see it. Now if you have done something to prove to me that you are not a law abiding citizen that is different or if you do something irresponsible like get drunk and decide to wave your handgun around, that is dfferent But if I find out that you have a concealed carry permit and are carrying because of a minor traffic stop or because you are a victim of a crime then we don't have a problem. Most, but not all of the officers I work with have the exact same attitude so like a lot of things, how you get treated depends a lot on who you encounter. I realize that is not very comforting but that is unfortunately the way things are.

sniperVLS · « **Reply #6 on:** July 25, 2007, 04:07:51 PM »

It's very easy to judge all LEO by the few bad ones but don't fall into that trap. I know it's easy to do but the majority have good intentions, and like LEO said above, he/they have much worse things to worry about.

If you're going to be traveling to PA often, get a PA conceal carry license. It takes a minute to fill out the app and another minute to write out the check for 26.00. It only takes an hour to get to PA for me so I hunt coyote often and am going for Deer and Bear in the fall and I feel much better in the woods carrying my Sig .40

From the day I mailed it to the day it returned to me was a speedy 9 days!

If anyone wants the steps/info on how to get the PA license, ask away. If I don't post the info I'm sure someone will. Some friends just arrived otherwise I'd post it myself right now.

myronman3 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 26, 2007, 09:42:50 AM »

Quote

If anyone wants the steps/info on how to get the PA license, ask away. If I don't post the info I'm sure someone will. Some friends just arrived otherwise I'd post it myself right now.

pm me with thati nfo please. thanks in advance.

chucky52 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 27, 2007, 11:11:10 AM »

I started this and now I know where I stand. I have nothing against LEOs; but, I think if I go to the trouble to comply with a reciprocal agreement and find myself legally face down on the ground with cuffs my attoryney's phone in my cell will be called asap. I suppose anyone can learn one way or the other. I would resent being treated like a criminal while complying with the law and a lawsuit would follow.

No excuse in not knowing your own states laws, especially for a LEO. Regrettfully, I see no value in a reciprocal agreement. Fortunately, I live in a state where LEOs seem to know what's going on. It seems to be a Northeastern Big City Mentality. I'm done now.

sniperVLS · « **Reply #9 on:** July 27, 2007, 11:24:36 AM »

I don't disagree with your thoughts at all. I would ve livid if I were to be treated like a criminal. In hopes of bypassing such a scenario, I got the PA license. It was well worth the 26.00 and 2 stamps for more peace of mind.

PA-Joe · « **Reply #10 on:** July 27, 2007, 02:04:54 PM »

As jp noted Philadelphia is a special case, so are state and national parks. In Philadelphia you can only carry concealed and if the locals LEO catch you they will take your weapon even if you have a PA CCW. You are also not allowed to cary in an east coast National Park/Hisotric site so that is another problem here in the City.

chucky52 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2007, 06:11:57 PM »

Pa. is a special case?

A state reciprocal agreement applies to the whole state with exceptions provided by law. Like just mentioned, a Federal Historic Park and I knew that; however, I was legal in the city of Philadelphia, subject to state CCW law.

My complaint is that I knew more about Pa. law than 2 LEOS and an armed security guard in Philly. They were unaware of the reciprocal agreement, completely. In fact, I fellt the need to carry in Philly more than anywhere else in the state. If Philly is a special case, I would like it stated in the reciprocal agreement. Something like: good luck in Philly as this agreement may or may not apply depending on what your particular LEO may or may not know about gun laws.

I'm beginning to think Philly may be like New Orleans who confiscated legal guns from law abiding citizens. Oh yea, in Philly they throw you on the ground, cuff you, take your licensed concealed handgun, your car.... Good grief, this isn't Calculus!!! Fortunately TSA and the airlines have it down.

sniperVLS · « **Reply #12 on:** July 29, 2007, 01:06:20 AM »

Quote from: chucky52 on July 28, 2007, 06:11:57 PM

Pa. is a special case? A state reciprocal agreement applies to the whole state with exceptions provided by law. Like just mentioned, a Federal Historic Park and I knew that; however, I was legal in the city of Philadelphia, subject to state CCW law.

My complaint is that I knew more about Pa. law than 2 LEOS and an armed security guard in Philly. They were unaware of the reciprocal agreement, completely. In fact, I fellt the need to carry in Philly more than anywhere else in the state. If Philly is a special case, I would like it stated in the reciprocal agreement. Something like: good luck in Philly as this agreement may or may not apply depending on what your particular LEO may or may not know about gun laws.

I'm beginning to think Philly may be like New Orleans who confiscated legal guns from law abiding citizens. Oh yea, in Philly they throw you on the ground, cuff you, take your licensed concealed handgun, your car.... Good grief, this isn't Calculus!!! Fortunately TSA and the airlines have it down.

Your are going to find that everywhere if you have enough encounters. Some officers in Ohio are some of the most clueless *enter appropriate term here* you will ever meet. I'm sure other law abiding citizens from other states will say the same about a few local police officers.

That happens in most jobs though so I try not to let it get me down(even though its one of more importance). I don't blame the officers you meet on the street. They have enough to worry about. I blame the lack of training and whoever is responsible for making them do it, pure and simple.

With Carrying comes a lot of responsibility, and with anything, you gotta take the good with the bad. I remember the first time I had to "teach" an officer the Laws and was told I was incorrect. I was fuming inside

What got me over that was I ran into him again and he approached me saying how foolish he felt about our previous encounter and Thanked me for being up to date with the laws and apologized for the snippy attitude he had.

One positive outcome like that goes a long long way

Old Griz · « **Reply #13 on:** July 30, 2007, 09:09:01 PM »

A few years ago my wife was planning our 25th anniversary trip. She wanted to go to Williamsberg, D.C., Boston, and on up to Maine. Well, as I dug up the state laws regarding handguns in the states we would be driving through, she quickly changed her mind. I'm sure the New England states didn't mind losing our tourism bucks. They don't want armed citizens in their territory, we'll find somewhere else to go. We wound up in Colorado.

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #14 on:** August 10, 2007, 08:48:22 AM »

One of the things that we go over at our annual firearms qualifications training period is this subject. We go over national carry for LEOs, Virginia CCWs and CCW reciprocity. I got to admit that it wasn't till about two years ago that this subject was covered.

As to some LEOs being a$$ H----, I have been pissed off more then once with 'em and I'm a retired LEO. After making rank, I would give them a little fatherly talk about citizen contact skills. Sometimes it worked and few times it didn't. All I can say is kill 'em with kindness. But do turn in that citizens complaint if need be. They are all acted on, even if you don't like the outcome. What goes around, comes back around!!!

papajohn428 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 26, 2007, 05:53:29 AM »

I'm Ex-Leo, and it really irritates me when someone on duty has no clue about the laws of his own area, unless he's a burr-headed rookie. That's part of the JOB, and annual re-training and updating old info is supposed to be mandatory. If I'm in another state lawfully carrying concealed, and I get taken down and cuffed, rest assured, there WILL be a lawsuit, and I'll make it very clear I committed no crime, and instead was the VICTIM of an IDIOT who overstepped his bounds.

I work in the Inner City, and I talk to a lot of the local LE guys. I have run across several who had no idea Missouri now allows keeping a handgun in a vehicle, they were still operating on the premise that it was a felony. When I was in LE, it was, but that was several years ago. If cops don't know the laws, why should citizens be expected to?

Papajohn

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #16 on:** August 26, 2007, 09:34:45 AM »

Quote from: papajohn428 on August 26, 2007, 05:53:29 AM

I'm Ex-Leo, and it really irritates me when someone on duty has no clue about the laws of his own area, unless he's a burr-headed rookie. That's part of the JOB, and annual re-training and updating old info is supposed to be mandatory. If I'm in another state lawfully carrying concealed, and I get taken down and cuffed, rest assured, there WILL be a lawsuit, and I'll make it very clear I committed no crime, and instead was the VICTIM of an IDIOT who overstepped his bounds.

I work in the Inner City, and I talk to a lot of the local LE guys. I have run across several who had no idea Missouri now allows keeping a handgun in a vehicle, they were still operating on the premise that it was a felony. When I was in LE, it was, but that was several years ago. If cops don't know the laws, why should citizens be expected to?

Papajohn

This is what gives us Leos a bad rap, Papjohn! But most times it is more unabated enthusiasm, then malicious behavior on the cops part. Training, training, and more training is the only means of stop this problem.

dogsoldier0513 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2007, 10:23:54 AM »

When I lived in TN, I was a school teacher. But I was ALSO a sworn LEO, and as such, kept a loaded weapon in my POV. My superintendent hit the roof when he found out I had a weapon on school property (Never mind I was a cop). HE didn't know 'the law'. TN law specifically ALLOWS any ADULT that can legally possess a firearm to HAVE a firearm IN THEIR VEHICLE while ON SCHOOL GROUNDS...as long as the weapon is NOT handled or displayed.

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #18 on:** August 29, 2007, 01:35:37 AM »

Quote from: dogsoldier0513 on August 28, 2007, 10:23:54 AM

When I lived in TN, I was a school teacher. But I was ALSO a sworn LEO, and as such, kept a loaded weapon in my POV. My superintendent hit the roof when he found out I had a weapon on school property (Never mind I was a cop). HE didn't know 'the law'. TN law specifically ALLOWS any ADULT that can legally possess a firearm to HAVE a firearm IN THEIR VEHICLE while ON SCHOOL GROUNDS...as long as the weapon is NOT handled or displayed.

Virginia has the same law. Don't these idiots remember the school employee that ran to his car and got his gun to stop a kid from shooting up a school. Go figure. These people drive me nuts with their attitude against legal carry.

papajohn428 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 23, 2007, 04:59:36 AM »

I blame the media for a lot of this mess. When Missouri finally enacted Shall-Issue CCW laws, the media used it as a sensationalistic Scare Tactic, making people think there was going to be a shootout with every fender-bender because all them Crazy Gunfolks was packin'. Never mind that the city was already full of gang hoodies who were already packing, and shooting people at random, plus all the robberies and carjacking they committed. Even three years after the law was passed, a LOT of people still don't realize it's legal to keep a gun in your car without any kind of permit. Funny how the media doesn't bother to tell you what the new laws entails, unless they can use it to scare you!

A month ago, a new law took effect that eliminates the need for Missouri handgun buyers to apply for a Pistol Permit thru the local sheriff. Funny how the news media almost totally ignored that little item, they don't want people to know it's easier to get a gun!

I guess if there's no gun crime to report, they might have to find some REAL news!

PJ

chucky52 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 24, 2007, 04:52:27 PM »

I have traveled by car in Tx, Nm, Okla, Ark, La. I have been stopped for a light out at night and a couple of minimal over the speed limit violations, as little as 61 in a 55. Also stopped coming out of a convenience store where they were watching for drunks... In the listed states, I was respected, told to have a good evening and sent on my way. What's wrong with the Northeast. If the attorney general of Pa. signs the reciprocal bill, school is out. The law is clearly the law and I am fimly committed to a law suit if I am cuffed and face down on the ground. It's not right, It's not necessary; however, I am convinced the only thing they understand in the Northeast anti-gun states is a law suit. They clearly don't understand that legal guns for the most part do not cause crime. Seems to me they have a crime problem as opposed to a legal gun problem. Call me an angry white male! In 1997 the Tx concealed carry bill was signed, by 1998 violent crime dropped 30%. The hoodlems know it's a crap shoot which is why crime has dropped.