Cape Fear but true...

[EDELWEISS]

In case youve seen this Im posting this on another site to get other view points, but I thought you might be able to offer some insight.  Im keeping  this vague to protect the "innocent" and allow you to come up with more "what-ifs". This is a true case and I'll give more details when it goes to court; but its being lived right now.

Suppose you're a victim to a minor crime, and the suspect is charged. Along the way its determined that the suspect has a mental condition and is perfectly fine when on his meds, but he has a tendency to abuse his meds and/or sells them for street drugs. When hes abusing his meds he becomes paranoid and violent. Lets say hes 5'10" and 275lbs with biceps the size of your thighs.

When hes arrested he makes threats to kill your family. Then describes details about them, where you live, and what you drive. He even explains foretells how hes going to do it one by one. To top it off he says "Im crazy, so nothing will happen to me"

OK, he doenst own any weapons but has used them in the past. Lets assume he couldnt pass an "Instant Check" but we know how good the gun control laws are at keeping criminals away from weapons.

Finally you dont live in this guy's neighborhood but you do live close enough that you probably shop in the same stores, movies, etc.

Lets give you a few options, you're retired military with a few special schools as well, but that was "back in the day" and hes a few years younger. You've had enough martial arts to know that in the end size does matter, and you're about the same size. Hes likely gonna be on meds prescribed by his after hours corner vendor. Just to be fair, you have a CCW. The police are sympathetic and provide additional checks on your house but they arent sitting out front 24/7.

You cant ship your family to grandma's in the country and you cant stay locked up inside.

What do yo do? Its sooo simple if you catch him stalking on your property late at night, but what if you just spot him while your out. Remember his moods change with the wind, one second hes fine the next hes violent and maniacal.

If you're grocery shopping by your self and you see him first but hes also just shopping? What if he doesnt see you?

What if your out with your family at the movies or dinner and you see him and hes with his family?

What if hes spots you and approaches, you cant out run him with your family in tow. What if hes smiling and says loud enough for witness to hear something  like "Im sorry cant we just get along..."

Now its your turn, remember this is real and its being lived right now.

[SHOOTALL]

Get a court order that prohibits him from getting close to you or your family , or being in the same store , or coming on your property , Yes it won't stop him in itself but will establish a need for actions you may be forced to take ! If you wait until something else happens he may be seen as the victim not you ! So at every chance you should establish his guilt before he does something that you are forced to use deadly force to protect yourself or loved ones !
If he violates the court order enough he may have to serve time ! Sounds like you will be living in condition yellow for some time ! Not a good prospect , but it is a price we pay for freedom which is a difficult concept when it is you in the ring !

[rockbilly]

Sounds like you are in one "hell of a mess."  

I think I would stay armed and ready.  Even if the guy does have mental problems when he is off his Meds, he can still do damage to you and/or your family.  I would have no second thoughts about popping him if my life or my family's life were in danger.

The problem here is you can't be there with the family all of the time, so I would instruct them to never travel anyplace alone, avoid out-of-the-way-places, stay out of places where they may be confronted without someone seeing it, and make sure that the family has a cell phone with 911 programed in the speed dial.  Don't call the cops every time you see the guy, only when you, or the family perceives danger.  Remember the story about the boy who cried Wolf? I would make a trip to the range, or where ever you shoot, and get the entire family familiar with using a weapon, and make one is available in the home.

Outside of these recommendations, short of moving across country there is little you can do in most states.  I would check with the DA and see what constitutes stalking in your state.  There may be a possibility he could be detained that way.  It may be only for a short period, but at least you know you and the family are safe during that time.

[EDELWEISS]

Thanks everyone for your responses. 

Heres the problem with restraining orders, 1. You have to tell him where to stay away from...If he doesnt already know the exact address, then you are telling him in the order.  Plus you are giving him your familiy's names if he didnt know them.  2. Hes psycho so hes likely to take this as a challenge.  3. He gets to go to court to respond to your allegations, and you have to be there too.  You may have a CCW but you cant take it to court, even if youre police this is a civil matter so you cant take your weapon with you.  A restraining order is a "feel good" paper, its white paper with black ink, it wont stop a bullet, but just before it hits you can say the judge ordered you to stay away.  Sure the police can use it to arrest him if he violates the order, but do you think its gonna stop him?

Someone said documentation is key.  Also youre right you dont have to call 911 everytime a twig snaps and thats probably counter productive, but a running log that shows everything youre doing to avoid trouble is much better than mere words in court, especially if it can be shown that its a work in progress not something produced after you take action.

[Rogue Ram]

I agree with all the above. IThe log is the first step. CCW the next. Home alarm system after that, plus the big dog if you can do it.  Call the State bar Assn., get a referral.......in my state a referral price for initial consultation with a lawyer is $35 bucks for the first 2 hours, he may have ideas and will likely agree to represent you if something happens where you need professional help with the restraining/stalking order.

YES, paper orders are just that...... served em, seen em violated, and arrested dozens for violating them.  Around here they get spanked with jail time for violating it.  IF he starts something, and he already knows where you live, and clearly he knows who you are, you have nothing to lose and will be better off to get it.

Moving on........ I know that if a citizen came to ME working in my profession, and explained the situation, I'd stop him for you (in the middle of the night........dark deserted stretch of road) and have the requisite "hi there, good cop and bad cop went home for the night, I'm a different kind of cop" chat with him. Big town or small town?  If the area is such where you can go meet the local cop(s) or know someone who knows them, get an informal sit down and at least the beat guy should be aware..........if he's been to handlin' school he'll handle it without saying much to you....    

Remember, he who calls the cops first is usually looked upon as the victim. Be safe.......

RR

[Mikey]

Edelweiss:  You can not account for or predict the actions of a madman.  That was the issue at Virginia Tech.  For your scenario I would (1) get the restraining order - the only thing that piece of paper is good for is giving you a basis for defening yorself if the need arises.  (2) Alert and prepare your family - you can easily obtain pictures of this guy (police photographs or by your own camera - your lawyer can advise you here) so that your family members know what this guy looks like.  (3) Many, if not most of the mentally ill who are on medications, whether they abuse them by not taking them or selling them for different street frugs, have fairly short term memories and have a real difficulty putting together a long term or long range plan for taking vengeful action against you, so that should help your peace of mind.  (4) Make cerain your family has cell phone capability so that if they/you are out and see this guy and if he moves to cause you/they problems, call 911 that you are being stalked by a violent man who has threatened you/family before and you need immediate help - do not mention that you are armed.......

People like the one you describe don't go grocery shopping and aren't usually seen in the types of stores you might normally go to with your family.  They may frequent shopping malls looking for a 'parking lot deal', which is an easy mugging, and this is something you can always alert 911 to. 

If he approaches you, even to apologize, warn him away and leave the area if you can and call for the police.  If you are backed into a corner or your family is threatened, then you have the right to defend yourself yourself and your family. 

I have never known a serious alcholic or mentlly ill person on stabalizing medications to apologize for any difficulty thye have caused anyone and if this person remembers you well enough to approach you, it won't be to apologize. 

I spent over 30 years dealing with the mentally ill, and many of them were forensic or criminal patients.  The Cape Fear concern is very real but may not for very long as many of these people have pretty short term memories but none the less you should be prepared to advise and protect your family as well as yourself.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Dusty Miller]

When somebody says, "I'm crazy so nothing will happen to me" you know right then and there he is not as crazy as he wants people to believe.  He may in fact just be your standard sociopath/psychopath criminal and if that's the case don't count on him having a short memory.  If it were me I'd be looking to import some help. 

[SHOOTALL]

short of solider of fortune mag. not sure of where to look for help ! and thats not a good option !

[Lee Robinson]

You might want to go to the local humane society and look into adopting a dog that shows a GREAT alert response. It is unlikely you will find a true guard dog there, but you might find a good alarm. And this may give you the time you need to wake you up or get to your firearm should the lunatic break into your home. I breed and train PP / home security dogs for a reason http://www.chimerakennels.com if you are interested...but, I am not trying to sell you a dog. But a dog is just another level of security...an option to add to another line of defense. And, I don't have any trained adults for sell right now anyway (as your need seems immediate)...but if you can find an alarm dog (even if just an alerting "lap dog") it might be worth it. Of course, a big guard dog that offers both a deterrent factor as well as the ability to engage should the need arise IMO would be better, but a fully trained dog that has some size to it can be pricey.

[SAA]

a dog is just another level of security...

I agree, good advice.

[RollTide]

1.  I would not dismiss the restraining order idea so fast.  If he is mentally ill (I have some professional background with this also) he may see harassing your family as a game, tit for tat so to speak, like a child would think about it.  In this case, the restraining order will teach him that it is not a game to approach you or your family and get arrested every time he does.  In case he is truly a psychopath, the restraining order will constitute a way to maintain an OFFICIAL record of his behavior, not just your "diary" of what has been happening.  This OFFICIAL record of arrests will be instantly available to the officers arriving on the scene and if it happens repeatedly, THIS RECORD will probably encourage the officers to go the extra mile to protect you and your family.  You already stated he knows enough about you to ID your house and family anyway if he wants to.  I know of a guy serving a life sentence for kicking down the door of his girlfriends house.  He did not want to hurt her, just talk to her.  There was a restraining order that he had violated before.  This was his 3rd felony and he went down for the long stretch. 

2.  The cell phone idea is also great.  Get one with a camera so you can take a picture of him EVERY TIME he violates the restraining order and have him arrested even if he is gone by the time the LEO arrives.  They will go to his home and pick him up if you have photographic evidence you can produce on the spot.  It will also make conviction easier.

3.  The "never alone" thing will be VERY important and staying out of potentially dangerous places and situations if possible.

4.  The alarm and dog advice is good also.  I live and work in a bad neighborhood.  There are bars on all my windows AND DOORS.  There is a big dog in the yard.  I also have motion lights all around the house.  If anyone even approaches my yard from any direction, MY DOG will turn on the motion light going to investigate.  The person always has to wonder if I turned on the light and if I am waiting for them on the other side of the door.  Even if I am not home, they still have to wonder if someone is home.

5.  Having lived in bad hoods for a long time, I have learned another little trick.  When you leave the house, leave some lights on and leave the TV going with the volume up loud enough to be heard by someone at a door or window.  Close ALL curtains so that no one can see inside.  The light from the TV gettin brighter and darker from different scenes gives the impression of moving shadows inside the house.  It is impossible to differenciate between conversation on the TV and other conversation in the home if the volume is loud enough to be heard outside but not loud enough to make out all the words.  I do this even if I am leaving home on extended vacations.  The little extra amount on the light bill will never be noticed.

6.  All the advice about CCW and training for your family is also a good idea.  Some personal defense classes for responding hand to hand and hand to weapon would be a GREAT option as well if you can afford the training and it is available to you and your family.

7.  Last of all, prepare like everything depends on you, pray like everything depends on God.

You may be surprised how effective No. 7 can be.

Be Safe,

Roll Tide

[EDELWEISS]

Thanks again so much for all the suggestions.  Heres an update.  Ive spoken to all my neighbors that might have any interest in helping and everyone has been supportive.  So far no local sightings but he has been seen by my friends, thankfully not near my house or family. When he was spotted he was accompanied by his family which I take to be a calming factor. Im cautiously optimistic, the trial is next month and the prosecutor while concerned was honest enough to tell me jail time is unlikely, unless the suspect "performs" for the judge.  Still the States Atty is confident he can get a non-specific order to stay away, without providing any more info than is already available. 

As for me Im on "bright orange" alert.  I rapidly found out that full RED ALERT is not possible to maintain for any length of time.  It simply wasnt possible to keep my family cooped up inside 24/7.  With that said they are never out of someones sight for any length of time.

[6Shooter]

Well, after a threat to my family and me like that, I would take the offensive. This person would not have long to make any plans to do my family or me harm and the law or his rights be damned.

[EDELWEISS]

Well they dont call it the "CRIMINAL justice system" for nothing, the case was scheduled for today but I got a message it was postponed.  So far no idea why it was postponed, but I hope to hear more tomorrow.  Maybe its a good thing.  In any event theres been no more sightings.....

[m-g Willy]

Been there  back in the day.
Only differance was it was a gang that was going to do me and two of my buddies in!
Went so far as them driving by my house and yelling WE'LL be back!
This all happened after a encounter with a baseball bat and they were on the recieving end.
Word was on the street that me and my buddies didn't have long for this world.
To make a long story short--Acouple of them was bragging to some girls that knew me, and made up a big story how they caught me and worked me over good(never happened)they just wanted to impress the girls.
WELLLLLL --When the girls told me this ,--I went along with the story and said"Yeah ,,I walked out of the bar and someone jumped me from behind",, said " I had no idea who it was or how many there were !!"
Told the girls thanks for informing me as to who it was.
Then I told them that the p$#@y's could (chase) me ---till--( I )-catch- (them)
I knew the story would get back to them.
They!! would have to be watching over thier shoulder for the bomb to drop on them (thinking I had good reason to finnish the score.
Never heard anymore s$#t from anyone after that.
Even went so far to go to the bar they hang out at and watched them in a group looking at me and never say a word to me.I think they were wondering what I had planned.

Well that is the end of the story.
I guess what I'm tryin to say is --that there is two sides --those who are the hunters and those who are the hunted.  --

make sure you are the HUNTER.

And don't ever play a bluff make sure if you ever get the chance ,don't hesitate ,do what needs to be done.

Willy

[SHOOTALL]

good story , but anyone can be taken out by a coward in hiding !
i would be careful being part of the problem , it becomes difficult to be the victim later .

[Rogue Ram]

Any updates Edelweiss?

RR

[EDELWEISS]

Sorry I tried to post earlier but I lost my connection.  Heres the latest, the trial was postponed in advance, so at least I didnt have to sit in court only to find that out.  No one knows or is saying why; but Im guessing "HE's" in a psych hospital so he can show how much better he is and not have to spend any jail time, which even the States attorney says is unlikely.

If, in fact he is in a pysch hospital, thats only a delay, since when he's out he has a history of selling his prescriptions for street drugs and we're back to "Mr Wonderful".  Needless to say Im prepared; but I have learned that I (atleast) cant stay on CONDITION RED forever.  The kids are still watched but Im no longer physically next to them all the time.  If they are playing in the yard my wife or I can be watching from the kitchen while making dinner or such.  The neighbors have been alerted and are watching as well.

Thanks everyone for you're concern and thoughts

[EDELWEISS]

We had the trial today.  When I arrived I spoke to the bailiffs to advise them of the situation.  I had a photo of the suspect to show them, so I didnt have to point him out and make a potential scene.  They thanked me for the info and I noticed their were two of them in the court room insted of the usual one.  The case was scheduled for 1pm and the actual court room doors were locked until that time, so I found a place to keep an eye on him until the doors opened.  He didnt have anyone with him, and he waited outside the room, so I entered first and checked in with the States Attorney, then I found a place to sit where I could watch the door.

The States Attorney said he would ask for jail time but didnt expect it was likely, remember the only chargeable offense was spitting on me, the threats were just words no matter how clear the intent.  Finally he entered with his Attorney and I was surprised that the Defense Attorney didnt ask to speak to me.  Then the States Attorney told me that they had aggreed to a "Statement of Facts".  Technically its a not guilty plea, but the police report is the only evidence read for the record, which amounts to a guilty finding.

I was happy to see that this Judge wasnt taking any non-sense from any of the other  defendants asking for another postponement to get an attorney, after they had already been told to come prepared for trial.  When my case was read the Judge asked me if I wanted to speak.  I told her about how I had to keep my kids inside out of fear, and that when I went to the park, or shopping, church, I had to worry about my family.  Being able to carry a gun didnt remove the fear, it only made me be more responsible to act if he was spotted.

He was well medicated and showed that he had been "clean" of street drugs for 131 days.  They showed a report from his psych doctor saying that he was responding to the care, and then two pages of his current meds.  Defense argued that to put him in jail would only interrupt his treatment.  To my GREAT surprise the Judge wasnt buying it.  She did remark that the jail would take him off of his expensive drugs and simply sedate him, so that when he was out we would be back to the same concerns.  After some pondering from the Judge's part, when I expected an apology with a stern warning for him not to do it again, She gave him 10 years (the maximum), suspending 9 years, during which time he was to report for medical review.  In retrospect I think it was the threats against my daughters that clinched it.