Author Topic: What is the allure?  (Read 1937 times)

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Offline czvz

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What is the allure?
« on: July 20, 2007, 01:15:21 PM »
Hello, I picked up my first Handi rifle standard barrel in .223, and I can't hit a Bull in the Hiney with it at 50 yrds.!!
The gun is used, but immaculate, manufactured in 2004.  Now after reading several of the threads on this fine forum it seems to me these are as finicky as a cat.   I thought I was getting a inexspensive, relilable, and accurate gun.  What good is it for hunting if the stars have to be alligned in the 5th house of aqaurius for these guns to shoot a decent group?  How many years will it take to experiment with different ammo, shims, o-rings, tourque settings and on and on to be able to get a decent group?  I used Wolf 55 grain, and it seems the concensus is that its no good.  Though Wolf brand works fine in my sks, mausers and Mosin/Nagants.  I have read the handi basics stickys and It seems what works for one may not work for another.  Are all Callibers as finicky as the .223?  By the way, I can shoot 3 touching at 75 yards with my M1 Garrand... I am a reasonable shot.   Please! I want to be addicted to Handis as much as I am to Mil-surps!  Will you help me with this new addiction.

Offline trotterlg

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2007, 01:26:10 PM »
If you wanted a real fickel Handi you could have bought a .243, the .223's are about as accurate out of the box as a Handi gets.  You may find some ammo it shoots better, or one of the tricks in the FAQ's may help, but some just never shoot.  You may have found why the previous owner parted ways with such a nice looking rifle.  Larry
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2007, 01:30:57 PM »
Welcome to GBO!! ;) If you'd start with ammo that has a better track record than Wolf, it would be a step in the right direction. Try some standard factory ammo if you don't reload, although a lot of the good ammo isn't available or is hard to find, there are some good ones to try. Federal American Eagle, Ultramax Reman and Black Hills to name a few to try.

If you have the Superlight model with the 20" barrel, barrel heat is a big issue that isn't a normally a problem with the standard barrel or bull barrel models.

As recommended in the FAQs, clean it good from the get go, makes sure you're not starting out with someone else's mess. The answers are in the FAQs. Basic break barrel techniques are usually required from the bench, that means the front rest needs to be under the frame just ahead of the trigger guard. The t-bar requires a full pull to the rear for consistent ignition, ya gotta play by the rules to make em work right, but once you learn, you'll be happy, I'm very happy with all of the 30 some of mine, still looking for more!! ;D

It's always possible that it's got defect or fitting problem that requires the factory to make it right, and they're the best at doing so, keep that in mind. ;)

Tim
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Offline burntmuch

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2007, 02:05:09 PM »
Check your scope mount also. Ive had loose one before.  Only took $30 worth of ammo to figure that one out.   Jay
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2007, 03:19:34 PM »
I have to agree with what has been said here but I would also like to add a couple things. I could not hit the side of a barn with me being in it with the Wolf and the Ultramax ammo. My 223 did not like either of those brands at all. You would also need to check the rate of twist of your barrel. The 1 in 12 rate of twist barrel comes with a warning that it will not stabilize bullets heaver than 55 grains. Most people report that the 1 in 9 does not shoot the heavier bullets any better. I would just try some good light factory ammo and see what happens.     Dale
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Offline czvz

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2007, 03:44:25 PM »
I appreciate the advice all have given, but Im still confused.  Would you say on average all .223 Handis need to be tweaked and nurtured?  And If resting the forearm on a sandbag will adversely affect P.O.I. then what will my hand do when I shoot offhand in a hunting situation?  Casually looking at many of the threads refrencing .223's there are alot of problems with reasonable accuracy.  My best group with the Wolf FMJ 55 grain was about 4 inches @ 50 yrds. However I did rest the back half of the forearm on a large sand bag.  Some groups I would have a flyer about 10 inches off!  Then I realized the forearm screw was loose by one turn.  But Still 4 inches at 50 yards!  I have 60 + year old battle rifles that have been used and abused that will shoot better with ammo that is from the same vintage manufactured under war conditions.  Please, is there something like 3 most succesful tweaks or adjustments that seem to work the best for accurrizing?  Again this is a standard barrel, not the Bull, not the ultralight. Thanx

Offline Ditchdigger

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2007, 04:25:18 PM »
Some of the guy's have better luck with a bipod and a bag under the stock. Mine will not shoot at all if rested in the hinge area.  Digger
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2007, 04:48:05 PM »
  I would defiantly try other ammo before I sold that gun off. I tried the Wolf 55 grain hollow points in a gun that I know has shot .3 inch groups, and was getting 6 inch or larger groups out of a gun vice. Also many say handi's hate to be shot when clean.

  BTW, The only problem I have had was with my .243 not ejecting shells and the chamber polishing. In my other 3 barrels I've had no problems.
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2007, 05:16:22 PM »

czvc:

You really need to do some serious reading...The FAQ's will answer most if not all of your questions...but I'll try to do some condensing here for you...

1) Handi's aren't designed to shoot any mil-surp ammo...and is stated in the owners manual...Some may shoot it and do ok...Most...won't...Loose the Wolf lacquered cased  ammo...and try what has been recommended...

2) Most Handi's shoot just fine being held by hand...but...when shooting off the bench...Most...shoot better when rested on a semi-firm sandbag directly under the hinge pin...Some won't shoot good there like Diggers...and my custom 26" 270 and a few others...but...Most shoot best there...

3) Most Handi's shoot very small groups when the o-ring trick is used...Some don't... and need a small forearm pressure point put between the barrel & fore arm...or RTV bedding the fore arm like my 270...but...Most shoot better with the o-ring...

4) All NEF Handis have to have the trigger pulled all the way to the rear to properly raise the transfer safety bar to the same position every time...if so equipped with one...You can't shoot it like you would most normal rifles..and just let the trigger break and release it...


Now...go buy some recommended ammo...bag it under the hinge pin...put a o-ring on the barrel stud..and pull the trigger all the way back when shooting it...and in all likely hood you'll start enjoying it more than you think right now...


The Allure...well...you have about 327 pages to read thru here on this forum...If & When you make thru them...I think you'll see the whole picture a little better than you do right now... :D :D

Mac
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Offline czvz

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2007, 12:16:12 AM »
Thank you Mac, that sounds like some good advice,  I will be out of state for a week while I settle my brothers estate in Florida, when I get back, I will implement your recommendations and submit a range report.  Hopefully I will develop a fever and the only cure will be more Hand'is!

Offline statelinerut

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2007, 01:14:06 AM »
Very good advice Mac. My Handi 223 put the first three shots of the barrel in one hole almost at 50 yards. At 100 yards it is still under an inch. I never have shot anything but 45 and 50 grain jhp's. I tried 55 grain fmj's once and couldn't get under an 1.5 for the life of me. Winchester White Box 45 JHP's have always shot well for me.

Good luck and let us know the results.
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Offline ~Ace~

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2007, 04:06:21 AM »
Also keep in mind many of the barrels don't start shooting Good till they have 50 - 100 + rounds through them, my .243 looked like a shotgun (and I was Stressed !) till I got near 75,  at 100, it's 1" easy and getting tighter ;D

I pull all my scope bases, make sure they fit the curve of the barrel properly, then put a Thin coat of Loc-Tite on the base and the screws before I reinstall, I dunno how much it has helped, but it eliminates the problem.

I'm a Predator Hunter... and these guns Love to shoot with Shooting Sticks, and with the Choate Forearm, shoot pretty good with a Bipod.

You did not mention how your trigger is, some are pretty damn ruff, Mine was well over 6 lbs and gritty, I could not get consistent groups. Now at 2 lb 14 Oz it's Much easier.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2007, 05:41:13 AM »


Like I said...most folks questions can be answered by reading the FAQ's...not all of them though... ;) The one thing to remember for ANY rifle you get from ANY manufacture..is that you could get a bad one...It doesn't matter who has made it...from a $30,000 1 of kind...to a $50.00 "back room special " ...there is always a chance of having a problem...The main difference we have with the NEF's is...we got a great C/S service department that will go out of their way to make every thing right on them...I only know of 1 other company that goes the extra mile to be as helpful...so...do your reading and look over what has been said...it may be a pain going back and reading thru so many pages... but just about every kind of problem has been touched on a time or 2 or 3x or 4x...and it's in there...

Mac
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Offline Dave Allen

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2007, 06:23:41 AM »
hello...don't be afraid to give it a "REAL" good cleaning...the wolf ammo shoot s "VERY" dirty...plus the fella who owned it before may have never cleaned it ?? i would clean for carbon & copper...

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2007, 06:41:16 AM »
You have gotten some good advice so far. Some of it may indeed solve your problem. But I would start from step one and move on.

Here is what would do:

1) Disassemble and thoroughly clean rifle. Action & barrel. (FAQ's give pointers)
 1a) Pay close attention to the barrel. Remember, this was purchased used. You have no way of knowing the PO treatment, esp being a 223, I'll bet it had a lift of surplus or at the very least cheep ammo. I'll bet its badly fouled.
 1b) Remove scope AND base. Clean screw holes of all debris and oil. Reattach base with lock-tite. If you have another scope, even if you have to remove from known good shooter for this test, do so. If no scope available, try open sites. OR maybe check the SCOPE on another rifle that is a known good shooter.

2) Check the muzzle, look close! Even utilizing a magnifying glass and good light. It doesn't take much to "ding" the crown and ruin accuracy. Should be clean and sharp.

3) Ammo, we have already established ANY mil type is a NO-NO. So either load some quality loads or buy them. Even if this will not be the rifles reg. diet. All we are trying to do is attain accuracy. The odds are if one load will work well another will as well.

4) Check the for-end for binding, pinching to tight spots. If suspect, shoot WITH OUT it. This will temp. simulate a free floated barrel.
  4a) You (someone) mentioned shooting positions. Put the front rest under the hinge at the front of the receiver. NEVER on the barrel itself.

Again, we are trying to eliminate probable problem spots. Once found you can work of eliminating that problem. Either by just not doing what ever it is (like ammo), or adjusting other things (like adding a "O" ring or cleaning up the fore-end barrel channel)

I hope this helps,

 CW

 BTW, your on your way to being a handi haulic.  I can tell!!! ;)
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Offline 357magrifleman

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2007, 07:03:52 AM »
This is good information,  Just wish I knew about this site a couple of years ago when I started using scopes and handi's.  Loc-tite is a must. I spent alot of money on ammo,  just to find a loose scope.

Offline BigLost

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2007, 12:31:17 PM »
Out of the box my .223 was so accurate,( still is )with S&B ball,,55 gr.,,I had to swap the 4X for a 24X glass to realize it's capability,,,it lays 'em into a postage stamp all day long,,,some gunshow 55 gr. hp's reloads do almost as well,,,FED. AMER.Eagle 50 gr. hp's do pretty well,,,Hornies varmint express 55 gr. are over the place!!!,,,but in general,,cheap 50-55 gr. loads shoot under 1/2" off the bags,,,it is the most accurate rifle I own. :D
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Offline Kentucky Shooter

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2007, 12:45:04 PM »
Something has to be wrong---mine shoots .600" groups out of the box with a Nikon Pro staff 3-9 scope----gun is absolutely stock with no modifications. What grain is your wolf ammo? 55 grains is the heaviest you need to attempt in these rifles. Get you some ammo in the 50 to 55 grain range; make sure your bases and rings are tight, and if you are not getting at least inch or 1/1/2 groups (possibly much better), I would be totally shocked. (I am assuming you have a quality scope in good working order).
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Offline czvz

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2007, 04:20:13 PM »
Well I got back out to the range full of enthusiasam with all the tips and advice.  I purchased some Remington UMC 55 grain FMJ.  I also installed a O ring in the forearm.  I had some leftover Wolf so, I shot that up with the O-ring and resting the hinge pin on the sand bag... @ 50 yrds I got 2 of three a half inch apart and the third flyer 11+ inches away from the first.  I then shot it without the handgaurd about a 5 inch group, again with the Wolf, but when I fired, two out of three times the action opened UP! .... Scarry!  Then I put it all back together and moved onto the Remington UMC 55 grain FMJ.  Interesting, I shot about a 2.5 inch group @ 50 yrds. then another 2.5 inch group.  I then move out to 75 yards and shot a 2 inch group.  Then out to 100 and things got a little out hand , about a 6 inch vertical string.  My conclusions?  Wolf Sucks!  The O- Ring helped!  Remington UMC is O.K.  Shooting without the forearm is SCARRY,  Resting on the hingepin helps but does not allow the rifle to be bedded solid... and it tends to teeter totter and wander.  I don't think Im addicted yet.... perhaps I will experiment a little longer and try some more of the tips and suggestions before I buy stock in Braztec/Rossi ... just kidding, is that like a dirty word on this forum?

Offline MnMike

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2007, 05:40:13 PM »
You did not say anything about cleaning. My .204 Handi shot great for about 10 rounds then got worse. I had been cleaning with a bore snake. I tried the Gunslick foam and my groups dropped back to happy. A used rifle may have a copper build up which ruins accuracy. Clean with a copper cutter, clean again.

The Remingtons don't shoot in my Contender. Go to Black Hills or Federals (actually Win white box 45 gr. are about the best, but are almost unavailable now).

Mil rifles are very forgiving. They have to be. Handis need a bit of pampering, but will reward you.

mike
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Offline Hofs01

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2007, 06:01:57 PM »
You said you bought this gun used, I wonder if the barrel is fitted to the receiver. Is there a number hand inscribed on the barrel lug that fits into the receiver? This number should match with the last numbers on your receiver. Without looking, I believe it is a 3 digit number.

Brian
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Offline Dave Allen

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Re: What is the allure?
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2007, 06:59:41 PM »
hello...as has been mentioned...you have said nothing about cleaning...i'm wondering what a good cleaning would do...aye...