What good is a 30-30?

[32WINSPL]

I would like to respond and add my 2 cents worth here. I went to the range the other day with my partner. He brought his '444' , chambered in .444Marlin of course and I my M336CS chambered in .30-30Win. I was shooting factory 150 gr. Winchester Power Points and he, hand loaded 265 gr. soft points souped up to 2400 f.p.s. Among other things, we shot into 1/4" mild steel plate @ 50 yards and 6"(3 volumes) of the 1952 edition of Compton's Encyclopedias bound together with duct tape @ 200 yards. The results: both completely penetrated the steel plate, both penetrated 3" into the books and blew up. Pulverized lead and copper jackets turned inside out was all we found. So I say this, the .30-30 Winchester is equal to the .444 Marlin with one exception; the .444 makes a larger hole. This exception is an important one depending on your point of view. I could agree that a larger hole=a larger wound channel=increased potential for a kill. To me, at reasonable ranges say <200 yards and in the boiler room, a hit from either would kill any thin skinned non-dangerous game including Black Bear. Oh yeah, the .30-30Win is nice to shoot. My buddy's shoulder was sore after 20 rounds of his stuff, I could have fired another box and felt better then him. Also, my 1996 Marlin is very accurate. I managed, from a bench at 3X magnification, a 1" 3 shot group @ 200 yards and on occasion I have shot 3/4" groups at 100 yards. I think a better shot with this rifle could produce tighter groups, I am no marksman. The trigger was smoothed and lightened to 3 lbs pull by a gunsmith so that helps too. I went for a scope so as to improve my shooting ability, not just at dawn and dusk but at anytime of day. It is the proverbial roof rack on a corvette(I like that by the way, ha, ha) but it gives me the confidence in acquiring the 'clean kill'. Okay, I've said my piece. I am sure most of you riflemen know this already but what the hay...more fuel to the fire. Thanks.

                                                                                                  32WinSpl. 

[Cabin4]

The results: both completely penetrated the steel plate, both penetrated 3" into the books and blew up. Pulverized lead and copper jackets turned inside out was all we found. So I say this, the .30-30 Winchester is equal to the .444 Marlin with one exception; the .444 makes a larger hole. This exception is an important one depending on your point of view. I could agree that a larger hole=a larger wound channel=increased potential for a kill.
                                                                                                  32WinSpl. 

My guess is that these test results would take on a different meaning on real game. given equal sectional bullet density, the 444 should penetrate much deeper. A 270gr bullet travelling at 2400 versus a 170 at 1900, the 270gr will go much deeper. Its just a simple law of physics. Having said that, the larger diameter of the 444, will develop more resistance, again, given equal rate of expansion from the same bullet construction & sectional density. But still, on game, that 444 is going deeper and to your point, it will do more damage with a bigger hole.

If you set aside expansion alltogether, the 444 can be a much better big game killer over the 30-30. Who really needs expansion when your shooting a 44 caliber bullet. Go with a hard cast load and the 444 becomes a great big game killer.

[John Y Cannuck]

If the testy media was dry paper, I'm not surprised by the results. Dry paper is very hard on bullets.
Soaking wet paper would give much deeper penetration from both, and a better idea of wound channels at that distance.

[SHOOTALL]

sorta like getting hit by a p/u or tractor trailer , either way ya are hurting for certain !
but the 30/30 ( p/u ) is much better on the butt ( shoulder )

[32WINSPL]

Cabin4
         I know little about ballistics, penetration and the physics of a projectile in flight so I'm hoping you will shead some light for me on the subject. Just what simple law of physics are you speaking of? I am thinking of the formula for Impulse, which could describe penetration somewhat, is that it? I do have some trouble clearly believing the notion of sectional density and I hope that one day it will come clear to me. I can see how sectional density works with bullets of different weight but of the same caliber and same velocity. Your heavier bullet will exert more pressure over the same area and hence penetrate further. Theoretically anyway. You mention bullets of the same sectional density{S.D.}, well I hope I don't offend anyone but the bullet I used, a 150gr .308" caliber has a S.D. of .225 while the 265gr .429" bullet has a S.D. of .205. One would require a .429" caliber bullet of 290gr to arrive at a S.D. of .225 and a 330gr bullet to get a S.D. of .256, which is equal to a 170gr .308" caliber bullet. Please help me to understand.

        The emperical data I published here was in answer to the thread question, IE; what good is the .30-30? I am of the belief that, from the limited data I observed, the .30-30Win is as good as the .444Marlin, with the exception that the .444 produces a larger hole. I understand that the book test was very destructive to soft point bullets and I need to do more with wet paper. Both penetrated the same distance though, does not this show something? Help me out here folks.

                                                       Good wishes,
                                                          32WS

[swampthing]

I've seen 2, 375lb+ Russian Boar drop from 170g, 30-30's. On both times the bullet completely penetrated the animal.
If you know what your doing is right, don't listen to others who are wrong.  Man truth.

[Mikey]

32WINSPL:  figuring sectional density and how it works has always given me headaches, so I don't try and figure it, period.  But I do know some about both the 30-30 and the 444, which is one reason the 444 is one of my preferred elver action calibers.

The 30-30 is a very successful round, period.  It is accurate and will cleanly take the kinds of critters it was designed for - whitetail and blackbear.  I believe the secret of the 30-30 lays in two factors - the weight of the bullet for the bore (170 gn and 30 bore) and the flat nose of the typical lever action bullet.  A 170 gn slug in a 30 bore is fairly long for the bore and with the proper spin gives great accuracy, and penetration as the weight of the bullet over its long, skinny length of profile adds a 'driving or penetrating' force that causes the bullet to drive, or push on through a soft skinned target.  The other factor is the flat nose of the typical lever slug which really adds the kind of a 'wallop' factor (precision definitions and terminology here) one normally obtains with flat nosed cast slugs but may not always find with pointed nose bullets.  An example would be a 30-30 with a 150 gn slug and a 308 with a 150 gn slug - both weigh the same and are the same bore diameter but the slower flat-nose 30-30 might have a better chance of carrying on through bone and heavy tissue while the 308's spire point may deflect off or be detoured by the same structure. 

I can also tell you that the heavier the slug in the 444, the more penetration you get when you get up around 300 grains of bullet weight.  The 265/270 is a good bullet for either the 44 mag or the 444, but it sure isn't the end-all-to-be-all in that 43 bore.  I have found incredible penetration in the 444 with heavier bullets: 300, 325, 330, 335, 350 and 405 gns.  Someone once said that with the 44 and 444, you need not increase the velocity of the bullet, only the weight to make it more effective, as the 'driving' weight of the bullet causes penetration beyond expectation.  Makes it a bit easier on my shoulder, too................

OK, this was a pretty feeble attempt at explaining (my efforts) how some of those bullets may work and why the 30-30 is so good, so don't everybody go pickin' on me fer bein' less than precise and the like.  I are only tryin' to help.  Mikey.

[Cabin4]

Cabin4
         I know little about ballistics, penetration and the physics of a projectile in flight so I'm hoping you will shead some light for me on the subject.                                                        Good wishes,
                                                          32WS

32WS,

The simple law a physics I'm refering to is: The heavier bullet travelling the same or greater speed upon impact will penatrtate deeper/further, etc, providing that their is not an inpenatrable surface to begin with. In additon,  these two example bullets should be of extremlly similar contsruction. In your test experiment, we really don't know the constructin specifics other then they are .30 versus .429 caliber.

I do think that all these type of tests are interesting. The more tests the better and ballistics gell or cadaver's tests are a better indicator on how these bullets will perofrm on game animals.

Cabin4