Author Topic: How do I sell out of state? (Read 1444 times)

crabo · « **on:** July 10, 2007, 06:55:47 PM »

I am selling a pistol to a friend out of state. Do I need to get an FFL, signed in ink, from his dealer and then ship to the dealer? Any forms I need to fill out? It is going from Texas to the state of Washington.

Thanks,

Craig

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** July 11, 2007, 12:10:36 AM »

Put it in the hands of a local FFL dealer and let him take care of the details of shipping it to an FFL dealer selected by the person buying it. They will know what to do. Some dealers will accept firearms from individuals in other states most won't. I personally know of no dealer who will provide a signed copy of his license to an individual as opposed to another dealer and these days since BATFE has ruled they no longer must have a signed copy on file but can take a faxed copy instead darn few will send one even to another dealer.

I had a long discussion on this with my FFL guy a short while back and he fessed up to me that it is technically legal to accept one from an individual from another state but that before that individual can legally ship it he must have a copy of the FFL from the receiving dealer. He said no way would he send a copy of his to an individual and didn't know anyone else stupid enough to do so either.

Several years ago I contacted BATFE and asked about this with a long gun and got two written responses which contradicted each other one saying an individual absolutely cannot legally send a gun out of state for transfer of ownership and one saying they could with a copy of the FFL of the dealer it is going to if that dealer will send a copy.

But with such a copy in hand that individual could then buy any gun from anyone and take possession of it without that dealer ever knowing it was on his license and that will cost him his FFL.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #2 on:** July 11, 2007, 04:10:51 PM »

Well, I have had a dealer send me a copy of his FFL and have never had a problem getting a dealer to send a copy of his FFL to my dealer for a gun transfer.

My understanding is that long guns can be mailed to a licensed dealer or repair station while handguns have to be shipped dealer to dealer. Long guns and gun parts can also be shipped via the U. S. Mail while handguns can't be sent that way.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** July 11, 2007, 05:49:52 PM »

That information is only partially correct and should NOT be used without varifying it all.

Any individual can ship a long gun or handgun to a manufacturer or licensed gunsmith or repair station for repairs and return. Some folks seem able to get the Post Office to ship long guns for them around here they refuse unless you are an FFL dealer. FFL dealers can ship long guns or handguns via USPS. The rest of us will need to use FEDEX, UPS or other such for handguns going for repairs or modifications.

To transfer tho is a different matter.

You are correct some dealers will no doubt send a copy of their license to an individual. Those are the ones that haven't been checked ad nausium by BATFE lately. Once they get that treatment they never will again. Dealer to dealer is the old way on sending copies and many still prefer it and it used to be the ONLY way but now it's not and most who are into the computer age don't like to do it anymore. Dealers can just verify on the BATFE site the other is a dealer and ship but so far I've not run into one who will do that. Most want to use fax now it seems but some still like hard copy.

Be real careful on out of state transfers to find out from a lawyer, the BATFE or as a minimum a local dealer what you can do and not get into legal trouble. Do not rely on info from ANY forum site as we're not lawyers and do not give out free legal advice.

crabo · « **Reply #4 on:** July 11, 2007, 08:03:44 PM »

Thanks, I like the idea of boxing it up, taking it to a dealer, let him transfer it to another dealer, and ship it. Life is too short to have legal problems over a gun sale.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2007, 01:14:52 AM »

Quote from: crabo on July 11, 2007, 08:03:44 PM

Thanks, I like the idea of boxing it up, taking it to a dealer, let him transfer it to another dealer, and ship it. Life is too short to have legal problems over a gun sale.

Don't box it up. My FFL dealer does not want the gun boxed up. He need to see the gun so he can enter it into his books and then he boxes it up and ships it for me to the other FFL dealer. So call your local FFL and see what they require.

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2007, 07:11:37 AM »

Boxing it is OK. Sealing that box just means the FFL guy will have to unseal it cuz he MUST look at it before shipping it.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2007, 01:35:23 PM »

Not long ago i sold a gun to a guy in another state.... I emailed him my address that he took to his dealer. His dealer then sent me a signed copy of his FFL by snail mail.... I boxed and sent the gun to the address on the FFL... and everyone was happy...

DM

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #8 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:14:50 AM »

along these lines , If I happen to be in another state other than my home state can i sell or give a handgun to another individual ,or a FFL holder ? i know i can sell a long gun to a FFL or trade a long gun if mine breaks ( for a like gun ) , unless the rules changed !

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:53:15 AM »

You can't transfer ownership of a firearm across state lines without the involvement of a Licensed dealer on the receiving end and it must be legal in the purchaser's state of residency to buy out of state. I can legally buy/trade a firearm in Oregon from a licensed dealer there, my state of Washington allows that. Some states don't, California I believe requires ALL firearms transactions to be done thru a California licensed dealer, in state or otherwise. You can read all the rules at the two sites below, if you have questions, give em a call, it's better to be safe and ask first than to jeopardize your freedom.

Tim

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #10 on:** July 26, 2007, 01:52:42 AM »

Quickdtoo , thanks !

blhof · « **Reply #11 on:** July 26, 2007, 03:42:05 AM »

I bought a 45 for my son when he returned from Iraq and gave it to him as a present. Do I have to go through an ffl to legally transfer it to him?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 26, 2007, 05:31:18 AM »

Quote from: blhof on July 26, 2007, 03:42:05 AM

I bought a 45 for my son when he returned from Iraq and gave it to him as a present. Do I have to go through an ffl to legally transfer it to him?

That would be a question to ask local law enforcement and the ATF to be sure.

http://www.atf.gov/contact/field.htm

Tim

From the ATF firearms FAQs:

Quote

(B14) May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)? [Back]

Yes. However, possession of handguns by juveniles (less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles generally may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm

warrior1 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 30, 2007, 11:17:45 AM »

ii was with my ffl today,and according to atf rules handguns must go dealer to dealer when dealing with
an out of state purchaser/buyer. long guns different story. face to face is ok,by mail,you need ffl on receiving end.
but you can go to atf site for closer look., dan

Rainman/GA · « **Reply #14 on:** August 03, 2007, 07:17:32 AM »

Quote from: warrior1 on July 30, 2007, 11:17:45 AM

ii was with my ffl today,and according to atf rules handguns must go dealer to dealer when dealing with
an out of state purchaser/buyer. long guns different story. face to face is ok,by mail,you need ffl on receiving end.
but you can go to atf site for closer look., dan

Looking at the ATF FAQ, it doesn't specify handgun or long gun must go dealer to dealer in interstate transfer:

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

warrior1 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2007, 08:55:48 AM »

oops, time to eat some crow.

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2007, 09:10:29 AM »

Quote from: warrior1 on August 03, 2007, 08:55:48 AM

oops, time to eat some crow.

A lot of that going around these days. Folks on here for years have been trying to tell me I'm full of it when I explain to them that out of state OWNERSHIP TRANSFERS have to be dealer to dealer. That quote is what I base it on plus specific BATFE responses to my written questions to them. A LOT of folks seem to interpret it to me only the receiving end needs to be an FFL holder. That's NOT the way I read it nor is it the way the written response BATFE gave me said they read it either. Even a lot of dealers then it's OK to take one from an individual from out of state but my FFL guy doesn't. He had the BATFE almost living with him for about two months last year. He now sees things a LOT differently than he did before that visit.

He kept his license but sure got some marching orders from them on changes he had to make in procedures he had been following. He thought he was fully legal in all regards before and I guess he was close enough not to have the FFL taken but for sure he was given changes expected to be made if he wanted to continue in business. Since he's the largest selling dealer in a three or more county area here he does want to remain in business.

warrior1 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 04, 2007, 09:08:42 AM »

B. UNLICENSED PERSONS
(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?[Back]
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

graybeard how would you intrepet the above atf guidelines? handguns definitely need ffl both ends,however
long guns looks to be ok for indiviidual to ship to ffl. dan

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** August 04, 2007, 10:10:23 AM »

Quote

graybeard how would you intrepet the above atf guidelines? handguns definitely need ffl both ends,however long guns looks to be ok for indiviidual to ship to ffl. dan

I do not interpret it that way. Nor did the BATFE when I asked them very pointedly and specifically. I was selling a Browning BPCR to a GBO member in another state and wanted to know if I could ship it to his FFL dealer myself or if I needed to have my FFL dealer do it. I was told in writing by BATFE that I must have it shipped dealer to dealer that I was not legally able to ship it directly to the out of state FFL holder.

I see nothing in your quotes that change my mind on that issue and for sure read the previous quote to mean just what BATFE told me.

You do what you like and bear the burden of proof in court you were right rather than wrong if you wish. As for me I'll not push the issue to find out. While I firmly believe all federal gun laws beginning with the one in 1939 were and are illegal and unconstitutional I do NOT want to be a test case to prove it in court.

warrior1 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 04, 2007, 11:10:23 AM »

greybeard i see your point,if the atf tell me no way,then that is the way i proceed,but appreciate i checked out the
the atf 's own regulations and i will let the same be my guide in my decisions. mayhaps i'm not totally legal
but before i proceed on any more sales i will dig deeper.dan

Graybeard · « **Reply #20 on:** August 04, 2007, 11:26:58 AM »

I believe you are MISinterpreting the quotes you gave above.

The first quote is the one addressing the selling or transfer of ownership. The second quote is only addressing the issue of shipment via USPS NOT ownership transfer.

You can ship your guns to gunsmithes or manufacturers for repairs and/or modifications as long as they are to be returned TO YOU after the work is performed. That is the shipment referenced in your second quote. It is not meant as a discussion of ownership transfer which your first quote has clearly told you is not legal.

warrior1 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 04, 2007, 01:24:40 PM »

greybeard, if i am mis intrepeting the regulations why would a ffl in california agree to accept delivery of my rifle by ups and then act as the transfer agent if the same were not not within the guidelines of the law. as i stated i wil dig deeper
but upon furhter consideration of my previous statement , if i have a sale pending and i find a ffl in the purchaser's hometown area that will act as the transfer agent and accept delivery of my long gun then i will proceed with the sale.
dan

warrior1 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 04, 2007, 02:01:10 PM »

If you're going to transfer a weapon across state lines, there must be at least one FFL involved.

greybeard as an addition , the above statement may be found on the auction arms site under the become a seller - help category.
now what may come into play are the individual sate laws. that is something i will check further with each pottential
transaction,howver a quick call to the buyers ffl will clear up that question.dan

warrior1 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 06, 2007, 06:12:22 AM »

Shipment by Unlicensed Persons
Any shipper who does not have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is considered to be an 'unlicensed person'. This section contains information on how unlicensed persons can ship firearms. If you have an FFL, please skip to the next section for shipping suggestions.
The most important thing to know is that you must only ship guns to a licensee. If the buyer is not a licensed dealer, he will have to make arrangements with a dealer in his state to ship the item to.

Before you ship a gun, the buyer must fax or mail you a copy of the licensee's signed FFL license. You can only ship the gun to the address on the license. You must inform the carrier that the package contains a firearm. Of course, the firearm cannot be shipped loaded; ammunition may not be shipped in the same box. You should take the copy of the signed FFL with you when you take the item to be shipped in case the shipper wishes to see it.

the above statement can be found on gunbroker.com. the same is for the sale and transfer of longguns out of state.
dan

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** August 06, 2007, 06:41:44 AM »

The ATF has set up a web site to validate FFLs, for the most part precludes the need for sending the paper copy or faxing of a license to unlicensed persons, although most licensees will want a hard copy for their records. Many FFLs won't send a copy of their license to an unlicensed person, so the Ez-check web site is handy.

Tim

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

georgeld · « **Reply #25 on:** August 09, 2007, 04:58:53 PM »

I'm not going to get into this discussion. Only to state exactly what happened to me about one month ago.

In Jan, I bought a Charter .38, it broke down. E/m's to them, and phone calls both. I was told to "just box it up and send priority mail". NFW I'm gonna send a handgun without declaring it at least to the agent on the desk. Yes, I know, the contents cannot be marked on the outside.
I had four different interpretations from the post office, incl acting pm on duty. I was given three sets of their policies from various different ones. All said the same thing as quoted above.

I ended up shipping it by FexEx direct to the man's name at Charter. About 6 days later, another shooter was here helping me and we came in over two hours after I'd seen the carrier bring the mail. While waiting on lunch to cook I went out to get the mail and there's a box thrown on the porch. "priority, with a labels proof paper tape on it. The label's: Charter 2000, to me. No other markings at all, and especially NOT anything declaring signature.

Knowing Mike wouldn't believe me, I handed him the box and a box cutter to open it up. There it was, a working revolver! He just about had to change underwear!

I sent two e'mails to Charter about. "we will never ever just mail a handgun as you claim this was sent". The second one I sent has been unanswered over a month now.

YOU decide if they did that or not. I'll provide a name and e/mail to the fellow that opened the box IF you'll send me an e/mail: georgeld@hotmail.com

Graybeard: best I can say now is: "cover thy arse".

George