Antimony ?

[mandoman]

The experts state, that tin does not increase the hardness of lead. Tin makes the lead more fluid and helps to fill out the mold. I know that
antimony does make lead harder,so where do you buy or find it ??

[VTDW]

Buy some magnum shot.  That will get you7 4-6% antimony along with a bit of arsenic.  Antimony doesn't make your boolits harder unless you quench because of the arsenic.

[Don-T]

Tin does add some "toughness" to lead but doesn't harden it much.  Antimony adds hardness to the alloy via it's crystalline matrix as the molten alloy cools.  The most popular source of antimony is wheelweights and linotype although magnum shot can be used too.  Wheelweights contain about 4% antimony, .5% tin and 95.5% lead and are about 11 BHN compared to 6 BHN for lead.  Linotype contains around 11% antimony, 5% tin and 84% lead for a BHN of 22.  Terracorp Magnum alloy is 92% lead, 6% antimony and 2% tin for a BHN of 18.  The old Lyman #2 alloy was 90% lead, 5% tin and 5% antimony with a BHN of 15.  More than 2% tin is pretty much a waste and expensive to boot.  2% tin gives good fillout, any more just makes the bullets shinier.  BHN relates to how much pressure it takes to obturate the bullet, the higher the BHN the higher the pressure it will take to obturate it.  Ergo, harder bullets can be pushed harder (faster) before lining your bore with lead.  The best source of antimony, in my opinion, is linotype.  Just mix it with lead or wheelweights to get the BHN you need for the pressure you want. 

[Lloyd Smale]

tin will harden lead some or 30-1 and 20-1 wouldnt be harder then pure. The problem is that adding that much tin to an alloy is extreamly expensive unless your lucky enough to run into it for  free. Alloying antimony is a royal pain in the but. It is a real job to get fluxed into an alloy so for the most part your best bet is to use an alloy like lineotype or ww that is high in antimony allready. If you can find monotype or sterotype all the better.

[largemeplat]

How much hardness you after? water dropping will approach 22. Heat treating will be close to 31, just with ww's and 2% tin, and leaving the extra antimony out is barrel friendly

[Lloyd Smale]

VTDW your statement isnt exactly true. Antimony does hardened lead without water dropping. Arsnic is what is needed to make water dropping work and wws have plenty enough in them as is even if cut 5050 with pure. The only time id bother adding mag shot to my alloy is if all i had was pure and wanted to water drop to make it harder. Im not a big fan of water dropping bullets. Ive seen just to many of them fail from fracturing. It makes for a more brittle bullet. Ive heard many people say that straight lineotype will do the same but ive never seen it happen at handgun velocitys. I have seen water dropped bullets fail at mag handgun velocitys though. I like getting my hardness from proper alloying. Ive never seen where a harder alloy then 5050 ww/lneotype is needed at any handgun velocity. As a matter of fact ive seen some of the best results in penetration testing with that alloy. I guess some day the lineotype will dry up completely and ill have to heat treat my bullets but when that happens i will oven heat treat as i just dont get consistant bullets water dropping them. Every bullet comes out of the mold and hits the water at differnt temps and I believe you are just getting to big a variance in hardness that way. With oven heat treating you can not only get consistant results but by controling the heat level you can control the hardness.

[VTDW]

Lloyd your words are true!

On alloying antimony from shot with lead etc. I really learned a lesson last week.  I read at castboolits that the antimony sort of makes an 'oatmeal' on top of the mix.  I had skimmed all of that off when I did smelt down a couple of bags of magnum shot.  I was scratching my head about the resulting hardness not being up to expectations.  I then melted down a couple of my ingots made from shot and did a mix.  WOW!!!  I never did manage to get the 'oatmeal' to totally mix.  Also, I didn't realize lino had that much antimony.

THANKS,

Dave

[handirifle]

OK, I know between 0 and 1% about casting, but I read somewhere that hardness from water dropping actually fades over time?  Is that true?  If so, how much?

[Lloyd Smale]

yes but its a very slow process and the bullets will take years to go back to there original hardness if they ever reach it.

[haroldclark]

quote [OK, I know between 0 and 1% about casting, but I read somewhere that hardness from water dropping actually fades over time?  Is that true?/quote].

Ole Smale is on the money on mixing, but I can't resist interjecting my experiences with casting, mixing and shooting the end product (Bullets).

Since 1/1/2002 I have cast and shot 19,414 bullets in rifles and Thompson single shot handguns.  The database goes back to 1996 with over 45,000 rounds recorded.  A lot of the entire count was with handguns for Handgun Silhouette type of shooting.

A large quantity of the bullets were cast with 2% tin and wheelweights.  I chronographed 25-06 cast bullets at 2245 fps.  No leading and great accuracy out to 421 yards (Rifle Silhouette Range out to 500 Meters).  I also, run 173 grain bullets from a 26" barrel 308 Win at 2054 fps very accurately.  All others are slower.

To meter the amount of tin added, I used pure tin and cast a 200 grain 357 mould with it.  Then, I weighed several bullets to come up with a weight that would be 2% of a given weight of wheelweights. The 200 grain mould cavity produces a very light weight "Tin" bullet.

Many years ago, I came across a source of linotype and then to simplify my mixing, I pour all of my metal into 1 pound ingots.  Then I mix 3 pounds of Wheelweights with 1 pound of Linotype.  I have a Saeco Hardness tester.  This mixture comes out at 7 on the scale of zero to 10.  I have no barrel leading at all.

If your bullets are harder than 7, they will most likely lead the barrel and cylinders.  The bullets will not be as accurate in my experience.  However, I have a friend that has had great accuracy with pure linotype bullet s in a custom rifle.

If you shoot steel targets, the softer the lead the better.  Hard bullets shatter and lose the momentum needed to topple a target. 

I have been retired for a long time with the time and I designed a shooting/reloading database.  I keep records in my database of my cast bullets that I have loaded and shot. I keep all loading records whether cast or jacketed.

I have tested water dropping and oven heating to temper the hardness of bullets.  I don't do that after running tests. 

Bullets with my mixtures continue to become harder from one day after casting and cooling.  I have dated and set aside bullets after recording the hardness on the Saeco Tester of 7.  I retested the bullets after 2 weeks, 3 weeks and 4 weeks up to 6 weeks.  At 6 weeks the bullets reach a maximum hardness of 7.5.  The amount of softening that ocurrs from that time is so minimal that I cannot measure it.  I had way too much time on my hands, don't you think?

My mixing policy is "If it will melt, I will cast and shoot it, within reason".  I have such a great time with cast bullets and phenominal accuracy that my shooting crowd declare that I have made a pact with the Devil.

The reality is that take your casting seriously for safety purposes and don't sweat the mixes, water dropping and oven melting.  Wups, as I was writing that line, the memory of borderline melting some oven baking cast bullets went through my mind.  My Wife was a bit upset.  My bullets didn't melt, they just slumped.  I keep all bullets cast on a give session separate and date the cast date.  That way, I have a consistent mix for that group of bullets.  I try to cast 500 to 1000 bullets in a day.  I use four 4 cavity moulds at a time and run them one after the other and start on #1 again.

If a bullet is only surface hardened when water dropped and it is later sized down a thousandth or so, it loses all the benefit from the hardness gain.

One thing to remember about sizing is to fill the intended lube rings full.  The bullet obturates when it enters the barrel.  If part of a lube ring is filled, the part that is not filled will try to obturate.  Therefore, accuracy from an odd shaped bullet will wane.

I have the results of a test done by a fellow about bullet hardness, obturating and accuracy.  The Article was published in the Cast Bullet Association monthly years ago. The bullets were recovered and photographed.  I have scanned this info and it is on a DVD.  It is too large to share on the Internet.

Harold Clark

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got to agree and disagree with you here. Ive done a pile of accuracy tests and have never once seen where a softer bullet outshot a harder one in a gun that had proper dimentions. Maybe in a gun with oversized chambers or an over sized barrel but for the most part a gun like that isnt going to be a tack driver anyway. Same with leading. If your getting leading because your bullets are hard (or soft) theres a problem that needs addressing with the gun. Only exception to this is soft bullets being pushed to hard. Ive shot pure lead bullets to 1000fps without leading and have shot straight linoetype down to 700 fps without leading. Hard bullets resist deforming when shot better then soft. If a bullet deforms when shot (bumps up) it can never do it the exact same way each time and a deformed bullet can never be counted on to shoot well. Im not a fan of heat treating bullets either. In the case of oven or water dropping the bullets just become to brittle and there the only bullets ive seen fracture in penetration testing. Ive never seen a lineotype bullet fail at handgun velocitys. Your ww plus 2 percent tin is a dammed good alloy for about anything. I use it alot. Most of my bullets are cast with that alloy or #2 or 5050 ww/lino. I dont get quite so fussy when alloying though. I dump in the ww throw in a little tin and cast a bullet and weight it. If its within 2 grains of the last batch its good to go. Ive done enough of it that its rare it needs an adjustment. Another thing i dont quite agree on is water dropping. I dont do it much but it does harden more then the surface. If you water drop your bullets and size them right away and let them sit and test them in a week you will find that they are still substantialy harder then air cooled bullets. I cast a ton of bullets and usually have close to a half a million on shelves in the barn. I shoot at least 4 times a week and have came to one conclusion. A guy needs to do his own homework on his own guns. What your read and what is fact is two totally different things. Its not that im right and your wrong or the guy your reading from is wrong. Its that every gun is a different animal. Every powder used changes the results. Granted years of testing saves lots of time on powder selection for certain loads as you find out that for the most part some work with some applications and some dont but its still not wrote in stone. Same goes with alloys. But ill stand behind the harder bullets shooting better as ive never seen it the other way. I have a buddy that has about the most extensive loading data records of anyone in the country. He keeps track of everything and has had guns in just about any caliber you can name and shoots them daily. I brought this question to him one day because of an argument i got into on the internet about the fact that i dont buy into the bullet bumping up theroy. He went through his REAMS of loading data and came to the same conclusion. There were no examples of a softer bullet using the exact same load that outshot a harder one in any of his guns. Thing is he has so many guns that hes not as anal as i am about making sure all of the barrels and chambers are right and it still didnt fly. There were a few examples of grossly mismatched guns that did slightly better with a couple loads with soft bullets but even those guns showed an overall preference for harder bullets. You wll however run into leading problems in the mismatched guns with harder alloys but for the most part they will lead anyway. Have you ever seen someone struggling with a gun using cast and not have good results and then tell you that the gun shoots jacketed fine. A jacketed bullet is much harder then any cast bullet. Whats probably going on there is the gun in question probably wants to shoot the harder cast bullets better but because the bullet is rattling down the bore and leading its accuracy goes sour quickly. Most times a little lapping or a simple chamber reaming would cure all there problems. I shake my head at someone who will pay 500 bucks for a gun and strugle with it for years because there to cheap or lazy to fix the minor problems with it. For the most part any out of the box ruger needs a little work. In just about any caliber except 44mag you need to check the throats. About 50 percent of them will benifit from lapping. EVERYONE of them will benift from an action job. Some come with pretty rough forcing cones and rare ones have timing issues. Correct these problems then shoot soft and hard cast side by side and id about bet a dime to a dollar that you will jump on the hardcast bandwagon.

quote [OK, I know between 0 and 1% about casting, but I read somewhere that hardness from water dropping actually fades over time?  Is that true?/quote].

Ole Smale is on the money on mixing, but I can't resist interjecting my experiences with casting, mixing and shooting the end product (Bullets).

Since 1/1/2002 I have cast and shot 19,414 bullets in rifles and Thompson single shot handguns.  The database goes back to 1996 with over 45,000 rounds recorded.  A lot of the entire count was with handguns for Handgun Silhouette type of shooting.

A large quantity of the bullets were cast with 2% tin and wheelweights.  I chronographed 25-06 cast bullets at 2245 fps.  No leading and great accuracy out to 421 yards (Rifle Silhouette Range out to 500 Meters).  I also, run 173 grain bullets from a 26" barrel 308 Win at 2054 fps very accurately.  All others are slower.

To meter the amount of tin added, I used pure tin and cast a 200 grain 357 mould with it.  Then, I weighed several bullets to come up with a weight that would be 2% of a given weight of wheelweights. The 200 grain mould cavity produces a very light weight "Tin" bullet.

Many years ago, I came across a source of linotype and then to simplify my mixing, I pour all of my metal into 1 pound ingots.  Then I mix 3 pounds of Wheelweights with 1 pound of Linotype.  I have a Saeco Hardness tester.  This mixture comes out at 7 on the scale of zero to 10.  I have no barrel leading at all.

If your bullets are harder than 7, they will most likely lead the barrel and cylinders.  The bullets will not be as accurate in my experience.  However, I have a friend that has had great accuracy with pure linotype bullet s in a custom rifle.

If you shoot steel targets, the softer the lead the better.  Hard bullets shatter and lose the momentum needed to topple a target. 

I have been retired for a long time with the time and I designed a shooting/reloading database.  I keep records in my database of my cast bullets that I have loaded and shot. I keep all loading records whether cast or jacketed.

I have tested water dropping and oven heating to temper the hardness of bullets.  I don't do that after running tests. 

Bullets with my mixtures continue to become harder from one day after casting and cooling.  I have dated and set aside bullets after recording the hardness on the Saeco Tester of 7.  I retested the bullets after 2 weeks, 3 weeks and 4 weeks up to 6 weeks.  At 6 weeks the bullets reach a maximum hardness of 7.5.  The amount of softening that ocurrs from that time is so minimal that I cannot measure it.  I had way too much time on my hands, don't you think?

My mixing policy is "If it will melt, I will cast and shoot it, within reason".  I have such a great time with cast bullets and phenominal accuracy that my shooting crowd declare that I have made a pact with the Devil.

The reality is that take your casting seriously for safety purposes and don't sweat the mixes, water dropping and oven melting.  Wups, as I was writing that line, the memory of borderline melting some oven baking cast bullets went through my mind.  My Wife was a bit upset.  My bullets didn't melt, they just slumped.  I keep all bullets cast on a give session separate and date the cast date.  That way, I have a consistent mix for that group of bullets.  I try to cast 500 to 1000 bullets in a day.  I use four 4 cavity moulds at a time and run them one after the other and start on #1 again.

If a bullet is only surface hardened when water dropped and it is later sized down a thousandth or so, it loses all the benefit from the hardness gain.

One thing to remember about sizing is to fill the intended lube rings full.  The bullet obturates when it enters the barrel.  If part of a lube ring is filled, the part that is not filled will try to obturate.  Therefore, accuracy from an odd shaped bullet will wane.

I have the results of a test done by a fellow about bullet hardness, obturating and accuracy.  The Article was published in the Cast Bullet Association monthly years ago. The bullets were recovered and photographed.  I have scanned this info and it is on a DVD.  It is too large to share on the Internet.

Harold Clark

[haroldclark]

In all my years and experience, I have learned one thing that is always certain and sure.  That is "The more I learn, I begin to realize that I know nothing for certain and I can be sure that I will never know it all".  Every time I think I have nailed down a certainty, something changes it.

I have also, coined a phrase.  I ask people frequently where they got their information.  The people will usually say "They Say this is true and that is not true".  Frequently, people will say that I heard this or that from my cousin's friend who is an expert.  I say "Oh, you have heard it from the famous "They Brothers"". 

For every reality, there is a variable from that reality. The variables are to vast to even attempt to define.  In fact, such definitions are just a variable that is subject to change.

I try not to get all in a dither about the variables and opinions.  I stick with what I have found to be satisfactory for me.

The wonderful part of a discussion is that we can agree to disagree.

Harold Clark

[Lloyd Smale]

Well said harold. I respect your opinion because it is yours and its worked for you. Second hand opinions are like second hand toliet paper!! Any opinion i give on here comes hard earned from my own bench not from someones brothers cousin or some 25000 dollar a year gun rag expert.