Author Topic: turk 38 to scout (Read 1743 times)

tomhargrove · « **on:** July 10, 2007, 12:12:46 PM »

i have a fine turk 38 8mm that i have thought about converting to a scout type rifle ,but i have no idea where to start ,if i cut the 8mm bbl to a scout length would it still have good accuracey. i now shoots very well. has any one ever seen one of these done .where could i get some good info on this, thanks

benchracer · « **Reply #1 on:** July 10, 2007, 03:09:27 PM »

If you shorten the barrel further than the 98k length (23 3/4"), you will end up with an intolerable fireball and paint peeling muzzle blast. A good friend of mine attempted to make an M48 into a scout rifle a couple of years ago and ran into that problem. Tried to cure the fireball by switching powders, changing bullet weights, using light loads. Nothing solved the problem. If you want to build a scout rifle, I would recommend changing calibers. Though I personally like the 8x57, it is not well suited to short barrelled rifles. I have myself built a scout rifle in 7x57 on an FN '98 mauser action. It has worked quite well so far and has shown a lot of promise in the accuracy department. Numrich has the same 19 1/2" 7x57 military profile barrels that I used (though I got mine elsewhere and paid too much for it) for about $40. One advantage to going that route is that it is then fairly easy to fit it with a scout mount like the one made by XS Sights. I installed one of those mounts on my scout rifle and I love it. However, there are lots of options out there and you can do pretty much anything that suits your fancy.

Mikey · « **Reply #2 on:** July 11, 2007, 01:23:08 AM »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Paint peeling muzzle blast is a bit of an understatement, don't ya think (lololol). Dang, the muzzle blast from one of those Mitchell short barrelled 8mms is just about enough to melt steel.

tom: benchracer is right, the fireball is just about intolerable and you may wish to consider using a longer barrel. The 23 3/4" barrel is just right for the 8mm. That 57mm cartridge is very efficient but it needs a certain amount of barrel to maximize that efficiency and near 24" is about it. JMTCW. Mikey.

tomhargrove · « **Reply #3 on:** July 11, 2007, 01:38:58 AM »

thanks guys you have saved me from a bad mistake i will leave the ol`man as he is and just shoot my cooper thanks--tom

coyotejoe · « **Reply #4 on:** July 14, 2007, 05:00:16 AM »

I have done just that with a ratty Turk, cut it to 20" and reshaped the military stock to a slim Manlicher style using the original muzzle cap. I installed a Weaver base on the the original rear sight base after cutting it down a bit. That is the most practical use I can find for those rifles, a cheap truck gun. I never noticed any "fireball" from Sellier & Bellot factory loads though I certainly did notice the recoil with the 196 grain bullets. The idea that a short barreled 8x57 would be intolerable while a 7x57 is OK seems quite odd. What about the 18" barreled 270 or 30/06? The European hunters have used short 8x57s for a century or more and often even for night hunting. I've never heard of this "fireball" problem before.

jh45gun · « **Reply #5 on:** July 15, 2007, 04:42:39 PM »

I cut one down (turk) to 18 inches and made scout rifle and yea with the milsurp ammo you can get a fire ball but I never had any problems with my reloads which would mimick factory hunting loads. Probably the powder used in those hot Turk loads. I also have a Swede made into a scout rifle and no problems there at all. I also cut a 7x57 down with no issues. I think the hot turk ammo produces the fire ball in the shorter guns reg ammo should be fine.

benchracer · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2007, 06:15:42 PM »

As I remember it, my friend was shooting Hornady Custom 195 gr spire points as well as some of his own handloads. We were shooting from covered benches at a 300 yd range. My friend was shooting from the bench immediately to my left. I was looking through my scope at my target, just about to squeeze the trigger, when I saw a bright, white flash off to my left. As it was a cloudy day, I actually thought that lightning had just struck very nearby and was kind of startled. Seeing spots, I unbolted my rifle and stood up just as my friend was unbolting his rifle. I and another shooting companion of ours watched him shoot the rest of the five rounds that he had loaded in the rifle's magazine. Each time he fired, a brilliant white fireball backlit the cover under which we were standing. The fireball actually extended back along the barrel, stopping just short of where my friend had placed his hand on the fore end of the stock. The muzzle blast was stout as well and both the flash and muzzle blast were uncomfortable for shooter and bystander alike. After that, my friend experimented with different powders, reduced charges, different bullet weights, etc. He was never able to get the muzzle blast to go away. That was with an M48 that my friend had cut back to about 18". On the other hand, I have built and shot a scout rifle on a '98 action in 7x57 with a 19 1/2" barrel. It has no muzzle blast problem, unless using light bullets with heavy charges of slow burning powder. Even then, the blast and flash are not nearly as obnoxious as my friend's cut down M48 was. As for why an 8x57 with short barrel produces a brilliant fireball and a 7x57 does not, I cannot say for sure. The only thing that I can think of is that it is somehow expansion ratio related. I say that because the 8x57 seems to work best with considerably faster powders than the 7x57. I don't know why, I only know that it is so from personal experience.

Stan in SC · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2007, 11:47:24 AM »

I had a gunsmith cut an M48 to 16-1/4".What a great little carbine!I shoot Turk ammo in it exclusively.The supposedly horrendous fireball is a bunch of hooey.I have a friend who saw it and had to have one like it so he had the same guy make him one.He loves it.Just my two cents worth.

Stan

benchracer · « **Reply #8 on:** July 18, 2007, 10:25:23 PM »

It is most certainly not hooey. After his experience with shortening the barrel on his M48 (he had the last step cut off and re-crowned the barrel), my friend wrote it off and had it built into a custom rifle. I witnessed the fireball and muzzle blast with my own eyes and so did two others who were also present (my friend included). One of the two is a member here on graybeard and subsequently inquired about the muzzle blast on this forum (I still need to do a search so that I can reference the thread). Dear god, do I wish that I had pictures of the fireball. It was truly impressive! Incidentally, the 98k standard barrel length of 23 3/4" was not arrived at randomly. When the Germans initially shortened the '98 mausers from 29", they too encountered problems with muzzle flash. Their answer to the problem was to settle on a final barrel length of 23 3/4" and to change the standard military load from the 154 gr high velocity load to a 196 grain load at more moderate velocity. In retrospect, however, I do wonder if it would perhaps have been worthwhile to tinker with the installation of a military style flash suppressor such as the vortex type that I have seen on M1A's.

However... far be it from me to tell someone else what to do with THEIR rifle. Maybe someone else would be happy with a short barreled mauser '98 chambered in 8x57. Obviously, there are several people whose comments on this thread indicate that they are satisfied with their short 8mm's. Based on my own experiences, I know only that I would not be satisfied with a mauser in that configuration. With that in mind, I would never recommend something to another person that I would be unwilling to do myself. Every choice of this nature is a series of compromises. The simple matter of what one can or cannot live with is what will, in the end, drive the decision making. For reasons previously stated, I would recommend against shortening an 8mm barrel beyond the standard 98k length. That is my free advice and it is probably worth about what you paid for it!

toysoldier · « **Reply #9 on:** August 02, 2007, 01:57:00 PM »

I bought a Turkish long rifle from Century Arms "missing small parts" for $20.00. It didn't have a front sight. Shortened the barrel to 18" and brought the barrel bands back, so it can still mount a bayonette. With a Uruguayan Mauser front sight that has "ears" and a brown rubber buttpad placed upside down to fit the stock, it resembles a Mk 5 jungle carbine. The military sights are so bad that, shooting Turkish surplus, I can't tell if accuracy is horrible or just mediocre. I'd like to find glow sights that I could mount without a lot of work. With a bayonette backup, I thought it would make a good pig gun.

Stan in SC · « **Reply #10 on:** August 02, 2007, 02:28:45 PM »

Any 8MM is going to give you a little muzzle flash and any centerfire rifle will have a certain amount of muzzle blast but these horrendous manifestations are greatly exaggerated.Like I said,my M48 has a 17 inch barrel and I shoot nothing but Turk ammo in it with no great paint peeling burst of fire.

Stan

S.S. · « **Reply #11 on:** August 02, 2007, 02:55:46 PM »

fireball size depends on many variables.
type and age of powder being main 2 culprits.

benchracer · « **Reply #12 on:** August 02, 2007, 09:44:15 PM »

There is no exaggeration in what I have previously stated. What I have stated happened and was witnessed by others, Badnewsbob (a member of this forum) among them. If anything, Badnewsbob will attest to the fact that my account of the situation is somewhat understated. The powder was H4895 of recent manufacture and newly purchased before loading behind a Hornady 195 gr Spire Point. Stan in SC, you have all but called me a liar twice now-- a poor substitute for both manners and a reasoned rebuttal.

NONYA · « **Reply #13 on:** August 02, 2007, 10:44:14 PM »

Id like to know how a muzzle blast comes back along the barrel?

benchracer · « **Reply #14 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:04:33 AM »

If you are asking for a technical explanation of how such a thing occurs, that is far beyond my level of knowledge. While observing my companion, Badnewsbob, shooting his cut down M48, I could clearly see a fireball that enveloped the entire front end of the rifle from just forward of where his hand was on the forend of the rifle forward and out. When I told him what I was seeing, he responded that he could feel the heat from the muzzle blast on the back of his hand.

Lost Okie · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2007, 01:23:07 PM »

No doubt in my mind you saw a fireball. SS hit the nail on the head. Type of powder used and age have 90% to do with the fireball. I have shot 30 carbine military rds in a TC contender with a 10 inch barrel and experienced the same thing. However, when I reloaded with pistol powder, no fireball. I have seen this many times over the years, but its easily fixed with the right powder. The noise you are going to get from a short barrel is a different problem.

rvtrav · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2007, 02:14:52 PM »

Hello to all,

one thing to consider is the turk actions can be either large ring (typical 98) threads, or a 98 action with small ring (typical 93/95) threads. this can work to your advantage if you are interested in changing calibers. the swedish 94/96 models are small ring threads and surplus brand new barrels in 6.5 swedish are common in the shotgun news and other surplus dealers. I still have a 16.5" barrel that I was going to use on a turk action for a nice little carbine/scout type gun.

The 19.5" 7x57 barrels are available from numrich and have the large ring threads .....And midway has brand new adams and bennet sporter barrels available for both ring thread sizes in a variety of mauser friendly calibers and lengths.

I built a couple of "twedes" with 24" barrels with surplus turk actions and swede barrels.. dang good shooters and a very nice caliber too.

Stan in SC · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2007, 04:12:14 PM »

benchracer,nowhere did I say the word liar nor did I insinuate such.I said exaggerate.I don't get on the internet to insult anyone.You have your opinion,I have mine.Leave it at that.

Stan

toysoldier · « **Reply #18 on:** August 03, 2007, 04:21:27 PM »

I just got back form the range, where I put 50 rounds of '47 Turkish 7.9 ammo through my 18" barrelled Turkish Mauser. I'm a little pink on the shoulder, but not particularly sore. The recoil pad sure helps. It's very loud, and sights are terrible, but I got some hints that, with good sights and ammo, I might get 3 moa, maybe better.

benchracer · « **Reply #19 on:** August 04, 2007, 10:55:49 AM »

Stan, noted and agreed. In my book,disagreement does not constitute disrespect. toysoldier, I would not be surprised if you better 3moa by a considerable margin. My friend's M48, while obnoxious to shoot, was shooting quite well. If you can live with it, the shortened mausers do seem to offer pretty good overall performance. My short barrelled 7x57 shot far better than I expected and turned out to be surprisingly pleasant to shoot.

bja105 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 04, 2007, 01:35:47 PM »

I have not shot a short barreled mauser, but I do have experience with blinding fireballs.

I have a VZ-24 I made into a 35 Whelen, with an Adams & Bennet barrel. I also have a big jug of surplus wc-846, similar to BL-C2. With any bullet and charge, the wc-846 loads give a tremendous report and a blinding fireball. Even on sunny days, you go night blind! Its a good way to see if you flinched. If you go blind, your eyes were open when it went off!

I shot a deer with WC-846 and a pistol bullet. That was the first time I shot that loads without earmuffs over earplugs. It left my ears ringing like no other hunting shot. The deer didn't like it, either. I won't hunt with that load again.

Rumor has it, that powder is on the surplus market because it failed standards on muzzle flash, I believe it.

Lets see pics of these short mausers.

crow_feather · « **Reply #21 on:** August 11, 2007, 10:19:23 AM »

That tears it. Your ass is OUT OF HERE. You've ignored everything I've said to you and continue to act like as spoiled five year old. I'm banning you. If you think you can begin to act like an adult again at some point drop me an e-mail and we'll discuss letting you back. Edited by Graybeard to delete CF's text and substitute my message to him.

benchracer · « **Reply #22 on:** August 12, 2007, 11:12:03 AM »

You lost me. I guess if you have to explain the joke, I am pretty much a lost cause. That notwithstanding, care to elaborate?

Graybeard · « **Reply #23 on:** August 12, 2007, 11:29:51 AM »

Quote from: benchracer on August 12, 2007, 11:12:03 AM

You lost me. I guess if you have to explain the joke, I am pretty much a lost cause. That notwithstanding, care to elaborate?

IF you are referring to the post above yours then it's simple. Crow Feather lost control of his senses and went on a rampage. He was posting the exact same post all over the site even in places it made no sense in the context of what was there or who had posted. I tried numerous times to stop him by making posts and sending PMs. He ignored me and continued to post as fast as the system would let him. He finally pissed me off to the point I just banned him from the site.

Any time you see red text and either Graybeard or GB following it you can know that I have gone in and removed the poster's text and substituted whatever you see in red. When you see me post in red that means I'm red hot and on someone's case big time.

I probably should just delete it but I really do want him to have the chance to see it if he happens to be lucking so he will know what is required if he ever wants to return to the site. So far he's not completely burned his bridges but another such rant and he will.

benchracer · « **Reply #24 on:** August 12, 2007, 05:18:23 PM »

Ok, that makes sense. I just thought that I had somehow missed something in the conversation or that I was seeing an inside joke to which I was not privy. Thanks for the clarification. I will keep your post in mind if I see such a thing again.

toysoldier · « **Reply #25 on:** August 29, 2007, 03:09:58 PM »

This is my first attempt to post a photo. Hope it works.