Author Topic: Handi 45/70 Loads?? (Read 1699 times)

burntmuch · « **on:** August 09, 2007, 04:07:09 PM »

IM reloading for my 45/70 using 300grn remingtons 42 grains Reloader 7 . I would like to try some 350s. My lyman 48th only lists 350gr in the ruger loads. My

How far can I go into the ruger loads? What will the handi handle. I dont need smoking hot loads. Would like to try 350s with 47grains reloader7 31900cup (starting load ruger data)
Jay

canon6 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 09, 2007, 04:14:50 PM »

I have a bit of working knowledge, and I think that the starting load you mention should be fine,I have loaded NEF's hotter than that and never hurt anything Lee modern reloading list 300gr ,49grs RL7 for 2075 hth Doug

burntmuch · « **Reply #2 on:** August 09, 2007, 04:17:01 PM »

Isnt the heavier bullet the problem. ?? as far as pressure goes

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** August 09, 2007, 05:13:00 PM »

Depends on who's data you use, Hodgdon and Hornady put the max levergun loads at 40kcup, some of the others put it much lower, but none higher. That being said, the SB2 frame will handle into the Ruger loads, after all, the .500 S&W is factory available in a Handi, it has a SAAMI MAP of 60kpsi and similar case head size. So load it to the level you're comfortable with, which likely will be in the mid levergun loads up to 40kcup or lower. Here's some RL7 data for 3 different 350gr bullets.

Tim

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570.htm

burntmuch · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2007, 12:25:45 AM »

Thank you Tim, Im not going to far into the ruger data. I wanna keep it comfortable to shoot . Just wanna try some 350s Hopefully get ready for elk. Jay

45/70fan · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2007, 02:07:51 AM »

Bump that 300 gr Remy R7 load to 50.0 gr and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. We have 3 45/70 Handi's in the family and they all love that load. We haven't had a deer move after being hit with it.

stuffit · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2007, 03:50:19 AM »

When I see some of the loads advocated for Reloader 7 it's puzzling. It is one of the powders I most prefer in the 45-70 for a broad range of bullet weights (I use mostly cast). I've done a good bit of chronographing with a variety of loads and bullet designs from the 300 Rem SPHP Corlokt and a Lyman PB 330 gr HP, to a 435 gr NEI cast GC design. The longer barrel (32") of my BC is no doubt a factor here. But without typing in a bunch of numbers, what I've found from all this is that 40 grs of Rx7 gives good numbers and performance in most all of them. And goiing beyond 43 - 45 grs, even though the loads are published and safe, seems to be kind of a waste. For example, I cast a 385 gr Lyman gas check design HP bullet and with the 40 grs of Rx7, mvl is around 1900 fps and accuracy is excellent. I haven't clocked the load yet in the shorter Handi barrel and perhaps the shorter barrel is the explanation for why other shooters and loaders have seen the need for the heavier Rx7 loads

stuffit

45/70fan · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2007, 04:48:33 AM »

In the 22" Handi barrel 50.0 gr R7 and a 300 gr Remy clocks right at 2000 fps.
This is a max load from Alliant's web site.

burntmuch · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2007, 05:00:50 AM »

45/70fan how far have you shot that load, Im looking for a load for elk. Id like to be able to shoot out to 200 yards without having to hold over too much. Im real impressed with the rem 300s as far as pentitration goes

Country Boy · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2007, 05:29:49 AM »

I'm thinking of using 1mr 3031 I saw a load of 53 grns with the 300 grn bullet. is that too much for a handi ? I thought 3031 was the powder for a 45-70 ?

45/70fan · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2007, 05:31:11 AM »

Most of my deer have been shot at 100 yards or less. I did shoot one at a little over 200 yards. I have it sighted in 3" high at 100 yards. I laid the cross hairs across the back and hit the bottom of the lungs. It was kinda cool because by the time the bullet hit the gun had come down from the recoil, I heard the thump and watched the deer fall over. I have yet to have a chest shot deer run after being hit with this load. With 3 shot groups almost touching and deer dropping like the Hammer of Thor wacked 'em you can see why I chose the 45/70fan handle. Dave

edgemark · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2007, 05:44:42 AM »

Quote from: Country Boy on August 10, 2007, 05:29:49 AM

I'm thinking of using 1mr 3031 I saw a load of 53 grns with the 300 grn bullet. is that too much for a handi ? I thought 3031 was the powder for a 45-70 ?

I have had good accuracy with 60 grains of 3031 and a 300 grain Remington bullet. I have not chronographed it but suspect that it is between 2000 and 2050 fps.

edge.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** August 10, 2007, 07:59:48 AM »

Jay,

I forgot to mention the short throats of most 45-70 H&Rs, I could load the 350gr Hornady to recommended COL in any of my three 45-70 barrels, but the 350gr speer and bigger wouldn't load to recommended COL, that's why there's a link in the FAQs on throating the 45-70.

Tim

burntmuch · « **Reply #13 on:** August 10, 2007, 03:25:32 PM »

OK guys looks like Im not the only one who likes those cheap ol remy 300s. Would you guys use them on elk out to 300 yards. I know there are better choices . Or would you practice all year with the remy300s then switch over to a better bullet for the hunt.
Jay

burntmuch · « **Reply #14 on:** August 10, 2007, 03:30:08 PM »

Tim I think if I do switch to 350s it will be the hornady. Thanks

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** August 10, 2007, 03:35:34 PM »

The Rem is OK for low speed work on deer, but it's not meant for anything over trapdoor loads, which you aren't gonne use at 300yds, they would work at that range, but to get them there, you're gonna have to push them a lot faster, then they blow up on anything close should the opportunity arrise. Joel used to shoot them, but quit cuz they waste too much meat on deer, he went to the 400gr bullets instead. But if you want a bullet that works as fast as they can be pushed in the 45-70, yet won't blow up on the close stuff, the 300gr Nosler partition is the best choice, it has a working velocity of 2300 fps down to 700fps, but even it isn't really a 300yd bullet, 250yds or so is probably the practical limit. Here's the numbers for the 300gr Nosler bullet....notice the energy is questionable for elk beyond 250yds too, it drops below the accepted 1500lbs for em.

Tim

45-70
Trajectory for Custom .458 Nosler Partition at 2400 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.199 0.199 0.199 0.199 0.199
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2400 2400 2400 2400
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Bullet Path Wind Drift Time of Flight
(Yards) (Ft/Sec) (Ft/Lbs) (Lb-Sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (Seconds)
0 2400.0 3836.3 3.20 0.0 -1.5 0.0 0.000000000
25 2294.7 3507.0 3.06 -0.19 0.46 0.0 0.031959364
50 2192.0 3200.0 2.92 -0.8 2.0 0.0 0.065400810
75 2091.8 2914.3 2.79 -1.86 3.09 0.0 0.100426510
100 1994.4 2649.2 2.66 -3.42 3.68 0.0 0.137146460
125 1899.7 2403.7 2.53 -5.52 3.73 0.0 0.175678364
150 1808.0 2177.2 2.41 -8.22 3.18 0.0 0.216147953
175 1719.5 1969.1 2.29 -11.59 1.96 0.0 0.258686904
200 1634.4 1779.1 2.18 -15.7 0.0 0.0 0.303429691
225 1553.0 1606.3 2.07 -20.62 -2.77 0.0 0.350511131
250 1475.6 1450.2 1.97 -26.44 -6.44 0.0 0.400062378
275 1402.7 1310.4 1.87 -33.26 -11.11 0.0 0.452202776
300 1334.6 1186.2 1.78 -41.18 -16.88 0.0 0.507032617

burntmuch · « **Reply #16 on:** August 10, 2007, 03:49:50 PM »

Yeah looks real good to 225 yards. The 300yrds was a typo I meant 200 yrds. I might as well try some. The reason Im asking these ?? is ,Im sure you know , the prices on bullets & just about everything shooting related is getting ready to go thru the roof. So Ive been trying to load up for everything I shoot.. So Imay have to order 100 of the remy300s &50 of the noslers.

burntmuch · « **Reply #17 on:** August 10, 2007, 03:51:44 PM »

The 30-06 is a little cheaper to shoot but man this 45/70 is awesome.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #18 on:** August 10, 2007, 03:56:40 PM »

Tim, would you have access to one of those tables for my all time favorite 45-70 load, 28.0 grains of 2400 behind a 350 grain Hornady Bullet...I have yet to be able to get anyone to Chrongraph that load. It gives me ragged one hole groups at 100 if I do my part and is a joy to shoot. It is better than any load I could come up with using 3031...Thanks to you or anyone that can helpi....<><....

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** August 10, 2007, 03:57:30 PM »

Here's some more numbers for ya from Sierra Infinity, the first one is a Ruger level velocity for the 300gr SSP which is a semi spitzer bullet with a BC of .291 compared to around .200 for the other 300gr bullets, the others are also in the Ruger velocities for a 22" barrel, but could be achieved within Marlin data with the right powder in the 32" BC barrel. I wouldn't recommend shooting these loads much in a 22" Handi, they would be hot enough to probably set the underlug back sooner than you'd like.

Any way you cut it, the 45-70 isn't really a 300yr round, it's really a short to possibly mid range, 250yd max with its rainbow trajectory.

Tim

Trajectory for Barnes .458 dia. (.45-70) 300 gr. SSP at 2200 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.291 0.291 0.291 0.291 0.291
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1440 1440 1440 1440
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2200.0   3223.5   2.93   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2131.1   3024.8   2.84   -0.23   0.61   0.0   0.034637880
50   2063.4   2835.7   2.75   -0.94   2.24   0.0   0.070403834
75   1997.0   2656.2   2.66   -2.15   3.36   0.0   0.107350814
100   1931.9   2485.9   2.57   -3.92   3.94   0.0   0.145534344
125   1868.2   2324.5   2.49   -6.26   3.93   0.0   0.185012613
150   1805.9   2172.0   2.41   -9.23   3.3   0.0   0.225846077
175   1745.0   2028.1   2.32   -12.86   2.01   0.0   0.268096738
200   1685.7   1892.6   2.25   -17.21   0.0   0.0   0.311827498
225   1628.1   1765.4   2.17   -22.32   -2.77   0.0   0.357101488
250   1572.2   1646.3   2.09   -28.25   -6.37   0.0   0.403981937
275   1518.2   1535.1   2.02   -35.06   -10.84   0.0   0.452530719
300   1466.1   1431.6   1.95   -42.82   -16.25   0.0   0.502806478

Trajectory for Hornady .458 dia. 350 gr. RN Interlock at 2200 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.189 0.189 0.189 0.189 0.189
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2000 2000 2000 2000
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2200.0   3760.8   3.42   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2094.4   3408.5   3.25   -0.23   0.85   0.0   0.034940111
50   1991.8   3082.7   3.10   -0.96   2.71   0.0   0.071661042
75   1892.3   2782.4   2.94   -2.23   4.02   0.0   0.110293292
100   1796.1   2506.7   2.79   -4.12   4.73   0.0   0.150976635
125   1703.4   2254.6   2.65   -6.67   4.76   0.0   0.193857504
150   1614.6   2025.7   2.51   -9.98   4.04   0.0   0.239085083
175   1530.0   1819.0   2.38   -14.12   2.48   0.0   0.286808506
200   1450.0   1633.7   2.25   -19.19   0.0   0.0   0.337170413
225   1375.0   1469.1   2.14   -25.29   -3.52   0.0   0.390297335
250   1305.6   1324.5   2.03   -32.54   -8.18   0.0   0.446289124
275   1242.3   1199.1   1.93   -41.07   -14.12   0.0   0.505202047
300   1185.6   1092.3   1.84   -51.0   -21.47   0.0   0.567029068

Trajectory for Hornady .458 dia. 350 gr. FP Interlock at 2200 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.195 0.195 0.195 0.195 0.195
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1350 1350 1350 1350
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2200.0   3760.8   3.42   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2097.6   3418.9   3.26   -0.23   0.83   0.0   0.034913379
50   1998.0   3102.0   3.11   -0.96   2.67   0.0   0.071548995
75   1901.4   2809.1   2.95   -2.23   3.96   0.0   0.110029019
100   1807.8   2539.3   2.81   -4.1   4.65   0.0   0.150484158
125   1717.4   2291.9   2.67   -6.64   4.68   0.0   0.193051492
150   1630.7   2066.3   2.53   -9.91   3.96   0.0   0.237871048
175   1547.9   1861.7   2.41   -14.0   2.44   0.0   0.285083174
200   1469.2   1677.3   2.28   -19.0   0.0   0.0   0.334823955
225   1395.3   1512.7   2.17   -25.0   -3.44   0.0   0.387216457
250   1326.3   1366.9   2.06   -32.13   -8.0   0.0   0.442362570
275   1263.0   1239.4   1.96   -40.48   -13.8   0.0   0.500329210
300   1205.7   1129.6   1.87   -50.2   -20.95   0.0   0.561130711

Trajectory for Speer .458 dia. 350 gr. Flat SP at 2200 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.218 0.218 0.218 0.218 0.218
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1300 1300 1300 1300
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2200.0   3760.8   3.42   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2108.3   3453.8   3.28   -0.23   0.76   0.0   0.034824818
50   2018.8   3166.9   3.14   -0.95   2.52   0.0   0.071178967
75   1931.7   2899.3   3.00   -2.2   3.76   0.0   0.109159090
100   1846.9   2650.4   2.87   -4.04   4.41   0.0   0.148868069
125   1764.7   2419.7   2.74   -6.51   4.42   0.0   0.190414081
150   1685.2   2206.6   2.62   -9.68   3.74   0.0   0.233908460
175   1608.7   2010.8   2.50   -13.62   2.29   0.0   0.279463566
200   1535.3   1831.6   2.39   -18.39   0.0   0.0   0.327191506
225   1465.4   1668.6   2.28   -24.09   -3.21   0.0   0.377199676
250   1399.2   1521.2   2.17   -30.8   -7.43   0.0   0.429585224
275   1337.0   1389.1   2.08   -38.62   -12.77   0.0   0.484430115
300   1279.3   1271.6   1.99   -47.66   -19.32   0.0   0.541791986

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** August 10, 2007, 04:09:40 PM »

Andy, without a known velocity, I can't give you any accurate projections, but using Alliant's 2400 load for the 385gr cast bullet as an example, I can substitute that velocity for an idea of what it might be, I'll use 1400fps since the bullet is a bit lighter and the load is 3gr more 2400, I also reduced the zero to 100yds cuz the energy falls below the 1000lbs accepted for deer past that range.
Tim

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Centerfire%20Load&gtypeid=2&weight=385&shellid=1099&bulletid=353

Trajectory for Hornady .458 dia. 350 gr. RN Interlock at 1400 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.189 0.189 0.189 0.189 0.189
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2000 2000 2000 2000
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   1400.0   1523.0   2.18   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   1328.6   1371.6   2.06   -0.57   0.85   0.0   0.055004330
50   1263.1   1239.7   1.96   -2.38   1.98   0.0   0.112916448
75   1204.1   1126.6   1.87   -5.55   1.74   0.0   0.173752699
100   1152.1   1031.4   1.79   -10.21   0.0   0.0   0.237456764
125   1107.0   952.1   1.72   -16.51   -3.37   0.0   0.303900558
150   1068.4   887.0   1.66   -24.58   -8.52   0.0   0.372897236
175   1035.1   832.6   1.61   -34.56   -15.57   0.0   0.444241454
200   1005.8   786.1   1.56   -46.56   -24.64   0.0   0.517767665
225   979.6   745.7   1.52   -60.71   -35.86   0.0   0.593347345
250   955.8   709.9   1.49   -77.12   -49.35   0.0   0.670879817
275   934.0   677.8   1.45   -95.91   -65.21   0.0   0.750286009
300   913.7   648.7   1.42   -117.19   -83.56   0.0   0.831504052

burntmuch · « **Reply #21 on:** August 10, 2007, 04:12:17 PM »

Tim thanks for the great info. One more question . Would you take a shot at an elk 200 yrds away with a 45/70 shooting 300 grn nosler partitions??? Cause thats my plan. not this year but next. Jay

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** August 10, 2007, 04:17:43 PM »

Jay, yes I would with my scoped 45-70, I worked that 2400fps load up just for that purpose, where I used to hunt elk, the only time I might get a long shot like that would be walking into a clear cut in the middle of timber where I usually hunt, want the stouter load just in case. I also shot the 350gr PMC +P ammo that I bought before they discontinued it, with a 4" high zero at 100yds, it was 5-6" low at 200yds, so it was good for at least that range and a bit more.

Here's the numbers for the Rem 300gr at 2000fps..

Trajectory for Remington .458 dia. 45-70 Govt, 300 gr. JHP at 2000 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.213 0.213 0.213 0.213 0.213
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1448 1448 1448 1448
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2000.0   2664.1   2.66   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   1911.3   2433.1   2.55   -0.28   0.45   0.0   0.038360715
50   1825.2   2218.8   2.43   -1.15   1.8   0.0   0.078516709
75   1741.8   2020.6   2.32   -2.68   2.5   0.0   0.120582313
100   1661.3   1838.2   2.21   -4.93   2.48   0.0   0.164674623
125   1584.0   1671.1   2.11   -7.96   1.67   0.0   0.210911377
150   1510.1   1518.8   2.01   -11.85   0.0   0.0   0.259409094
175   1439.9   1380.9   1.92   -16.7   -2.62   0.0   0.310277122
200   1373.8   1256.9   1.83   -22.6   -6.3   0.0   0.363612152
225   1311.9   1146.3   1.75   -29.65   -11.12   0.0   0.419491222
250   1254.9   1048.8   1.67   -37.97   -17.21   0.0   0.477960757
275   1203.0   963.9   1.60   -47.66   -24.68   0.0   0.539023690
300   1156.6   891.0   1.54   -58.85   -33.64   0.0   0.602631156

MSP Ret · « **Reply #23 on:** August 10, 2007, 04:32:38 PM »

Thanks Quick, that helps greatly, suprisingly my current altitude is pretty close to 0', about 23' I believe, and the current temperature is 59 degrees with no wind!....<><....

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** August 10, 2007, 04:39:57 PM »

Those are the default settings in Sierra Infinity software.

Tim

Country Boy · « **Reply #25 on:** August 11, 2007, 10:03:02 AM »

I read article by Chuck Hawks who AID WITH A 3" 0 AT 100 yds THE .4570 IS ABOUT A 162 YARD DEER RIFLE. he IS RIGHT ! i TRIED IT i ALSO SHOT AT 175 NO PROBLEMS. AnLK IS A LOT BIGGER THAN A DEER. I was shooting gallon milk jugs full of water. I didn't
shoot at 200 as I was plenty happy but I'm sure I could have hit one. This was with factory 300 grn winchester pp.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** August 12, 2007, 10:48:49 AM »

For those that only shoot factory ammo, and want loads that are heavier than the usual trapdoor level loads, Buffalo Bore, Garrett and Conley offer some nice loads that are safe in H&R 45-70s. Each has a list of the firearms they're safe to be used in.

Tim

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#4570

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

http://www.cpcartridge.com/45-70marlin-P.htm