Calibers for Africa

[flyboy]

JJ:   For years, my dream has been to hunt Africa.  That's all it will likely be, but on the faint chance that one day...(Never let  an old, retired claims adjuster start to scheme!  )

Would the 6.5X55, .308, or .270 be sufficient for the species  I really want, which are  Warthog, Zebra, Kudu, Leopard, and maybe Crocodile?

I know I would need something bigger for the other two animals I fancy...Cape Buffalo and Hippo, so would the .375 H&H or equivalent be sufficient?  Which would present fewer problems with ammo availability?

Thank you.

[Dee]

Even Jeff Cooper later admitted that with several different loadings a modern rifle in 4570 would be more than adequate for any thing walking or swimming in Africa. I don't want to go to Africa, but if I were to go, I would take an 1895 Cowboy in 4570 caliber, with several different loadings to handle all mentioned. The front sight I might replace with a fire sight in green, for faster pickup in the event of a charge. The lever in my opinion "with practice" would be far superior in a charge and the extra rounds don't hurt the possibility either. Admittedly my choice is not romantically African, but I'm not very romantic in that respect. I just go for what works best for me, and trying to work a bolt under stress, doesn't appeal to me. But then again neither does a two shooter (double) under such circumstances. JMO

[Dixie Dude]

I too have asked a lot of questions and here is one of my links:

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,126880.0.html

I want to go also, but it will be 3-5 years.  From what I have found out a control round feed rifle is best (mauser action) especially for large or dangerous game.  Also, larger diameter is better for tracking in the dry, dusty conditons of southern Africa during the hunting season.  JJHack uses a 30-06 and a 375hh because these calibers are readily available in Africa, in case you loose yours in transit.  Other calibers are available but in diminishing numbers.  Scroll down and read more of the African Hunting, there is a wealth of information. 

[JJHACK]

Most PH's don't care for sub 30 caliber rifles. I'm no exception to that. There are more lost game animals when wounded with sub 30 caliber then with over 30 caliber. Nobody with a few years of experience seeing 1000 animals shot and run off will deny the advantage of a better blood trail which comes from larger diameter bullets. Heck anything will kill big game with good placement, but the more important set of requirements is finding the game after it's shot. Also not taking a day of searching which takes away from hunting other animals.

So for my money I want a 30 caliber or larger if it's my hunt. I have had plenty of hunters with sub 30 calibers be successful, and several with big bores that were not. When nerves play into the shooting less then perfect shots make the bigger bores far more attractive to me. For a marksman with ice in his veins then any rifle will probably work. It's up the the hunter to be honest with himself and say...........I will be nervous and excited, or I'm soooo good I will be cool as Ice and not have a problem with anything that comes up. ...................  (yeah right)

The 375HH is plenty for everything with the proper ammo selection.  No need to buy a rifle just for the trip though. In my camp I have custom rifles for the hunters to use. As far as the dream just to put a few "dreams" into perspective:

Simple 5 animal plains game hunt with 3-4 days in the Kruger park and airfare for 2 about 10,000 (ballpark)

Buffalo 2,500- 4,500 plus
Leopard 5,000 to 8,000 plus
Croc, 6,000 to
Daily fee's 850-1250 plus per day with a minimum amount of paid hunting days
These are ballpark numbers but you can see Africa is an incredibly affordable destination for simple park tours and plains game.

On the other hand it's an elite destination for the wealthy for several species.

[RAC]

Even Jeff Cooper later admitted that with several different loadings a modern rifle in 4570 would be more than adequate for any thing walking or swimming in Africa. I don't want to go to Africa, but if I were to go, I would take an 1895 Cowboy in 4570 caliber, with several different loadings to handle all mentioned. The front sight I might replace with a fire sight in green, for faster pickup in the event of a charge. The lever in my opinion "with practice" would be far superior in a charge and the extra rounds don't hurt the possibility either. Admittedly my choice is not romantically African, but I'm not very romantic in that respect. I just go for what works best for me, and trying to work a bolt under stress, doesn't appeal to me. But then again neither does a two shooter (double) under such circumstances. JMO

Dee, I should shut up but I feel a little bit tired and cranky today.  Why is it every time some newby asks what would be a good rifle cartridge to take to Africa somebody always dredges up the Marlin 45-70 as the perfect African caliber and rifle combination which is somehow superior to all other rifle designs and calibers?  And they always preface their response with "I don't want to go to Africa, but if I were to go..."  Also, on this hypothetical hunt you are going on, how many "charges" are you expecting?  Why do you want to have several different loadings?  Why not just one load with a 405 gr bonded bullet @ 1850 fps that you have practiced with for 1000's of shots so you won't be shooting that charging buff with your trapdoor loads?   Practice with a bolt.  It is a better system and you can short stroke a lever action much easier under stress.  You know, a Marlin 45-70 is a fun little gun but a bolt action in something like a 30-06 would be a superior rifle for plains game.  375H&H is the minimum for DG.  Yes, you can kill a buffalo with a 45-70 or a 30-06 for that matter but they are not the best choices and in most cases would be illegal to use.  Would you take a 223 loaded with 55 grain bullets on a once in a lifetime hunt for a 300 lb Saskatchewan whitetail buck?   Least you think I am totally against leverguns and 45-70's; in 2006 I went on my second safari to South Africa where I hunted with a Marlin 45-70.  I had a blast and killed 5 animals.  The Marlin 45-70 is a  great gun in its place but it has its limitations.  It will never be a do all rifle/cartridge combination.

[JJHACK]

Wow............ I believe I actually saw steam coming out of my monitor after reading that post!

Folks can bring anything they want to hunt with me. Just gotta realize the limitations in what they drag over. For the first timer heading over with a year or more of anticipation and excitement. A simple bolt action with a good scope is hard to beat.

For a guy on a second trip, or looking for a specific adventure, then what the heck bring something fun. I have about 1/2 the archery hunters each year use my 30/06 to kill more then half of what they take home. They have the bow and when it works it's great. However they did not travel that far and with that expense to watch game walk by just out of reach.

For the hunter dreaming of Africa for the first time trip, stick with an established scoped performer over 30 caliber with premium bullets. That's my suggestion. But you're still welcome to hunt with me using a pocket knife if that's what trips your trigger.

[Dusty Miller]

Yeah, be the first on your block to kill a cape buffalo with a pellet gun!!

[Dee]

Even Jeff Cooper later admitted that with several different loadings a modern rifle in 4570 would be more than adequate for any thing walking or swimming in Africa. I don't want to go to Africa, but if I were to go, I would take an 1895 Cowboy in 4570 caliber, with several different loadings to handle all mentioned. The front sight I might replace with a fire sight in green, for faster pickup in the event of a charge. The lever in my opinion "with practice" would be far superior in a charge and the extra rounds don't hurt the possibility either. Admittedly my choice is not romantically African, but I'm not very romantic in that respect. I just go for what works best for me, and trying to work a bolt under stress, doesn't appeal to me. But then again neither does a two shooter (double) under such circumstances. JMO

Dee, I should shut up but I feel a little bit tired and cranky today.  Why is it every time some newby asks what would be a good rifle cartridge to take to Africa somebody always dredges up the Marlin 45-70 as the perfect African caliber and rifle combination which is somehow superior to all other rifle designs and calibers?  And they always preface their response with "I don't want to go to Africa, but if I were to go..."  Also, on this hypothetical hunt you are going on, how many "charges" are you expecting?  Why do you want to have several different loadings?  Why not just one load with a 405 gr bonded bullet @ 1850 fps that you have practiced with for 1000's of shots so you won't be shooting that charging buff with your trapdoor loads?   Practice with a bolt.  It is a better system and you can short stroke a lever action much easier under stress.  You know, a Marlin 45-70 is a fun little gun but a bolt action in something like a 30-06 would be a superior rifle for plains game.  375H&H is the minimum for DG.  Yes, you can kill a buffalo with a 45-70 or a 30-06 for that matter but they are not the best choices and in most cases would be illegal to use.  Would you take a 223 loaded with 55 grain bullets on a once in a lifetime hunt for a 300 lb Saskatchewan whitetail buck?   Least you think I am totally against leverguns and 45-70's; in 2006 I went on my second safari to South Africa where I hunted with a Marlin 45-70.  I had a blast and killed 5 animals.  The Marlin 45-70 is a  great gun in its place but it has its limitations.  It will never be a do all rifle/cartridge combination.

Well, you certainly are cranky that's for sure. You also read a lot into my post, that wasn't there. I guess that's just your style. As I understood it, this was a discussion for anyone. That's what I was doing, and am deeply "concerned" that I did not meet your criteria for properly discussing a topic, please forgive me. I will try to do better next time. Until then I'll just consider the source. You have a good day RAC, and keep an eye on that blood pressure.
P.S. I doubt shut up is in your skill level.

[CRDNLPLT]

270 or 308 will do fine for pretty much all the plains game there.  I was in Zambia for work and was able to go hunting for a weekend and all I could find was a 243 and dropped a hartebeast, impala and a duiker all in their footprints.

Great fun!!!  Highly recommend it!

[Sweet 6.5]

 375H&H is the minimum for DG.  Yes, you can kill a buffalo with a 45-70 or a 30-06 for that matter but they are not the best choices and in most cases would be illegal to use. 

Hi

Why would the 45-70 be illegal in most cases? I always thought 375 was the cut-off and then some countries relaxed a bit
to get the 9.3 families also in.

Sweet

[Dee]

A 4570 will "almost" equal a 458 win mag. in the right loading. How much power does one need?

[JJHACK]

I guess that depends upon your definition of "almost"

What gun and load are you getting 2200fps with a 500 grain bullet?

remember too that the 458 was originally deemed a complete failure when it was getting 1900 fps with the 500 grain bullets. Several PH's and game managers were killed, and badly injured using the 458 win mag at that speed. Lott and Watt quickly developed their own versions. These new Lott and Watt cartridges became the cartridges of choice for PH's. Those with 458's were doing a re-chamber.  The Watt and Lott cartridges will shoot a 500 grain bullet at 2400fps, however that is edging upon excessive and creates excessive bullet break up. The Lott shooting in the 2200-2300 fps range is the sweet spot with a 500 grain bullet, when using the 450 grain TSX the 2250-2350 fps is also a devistating load. Nothing less then this is "almost" where dangerous game is concerned. There is only this much or more that is workable.

Today with modern powders and devastating bullets the 458 Win mag is a completely different gun capable of easily shooting 2200fps with several different bullets and loads. It is clear that shooting anything less the 2000fps/500 grains is not acceptable, nor is it legal in most of the countries that have the big five.

As I said,... I guess it depends upon your definition of "almost"   My Diesel truck is almost as fast as a Porsche too, and a bit slower then a F-15. Definitions become important, much like what the definition of "is" is according to Bill Clinton!

It becomes all to common to read these internet posts. One common trait in them is that none of the people have stood within 100 meters of a Trumpeting elephant doing a bluff charge, feeling the rumble in your chest from a lions roar, or seeing a cape buffalo taking 4-5-6 shots and closing the distance at 30mph right towards you or your client. It would simplify these threads so much if the people who type these posts had that experience. Most of my hunters with a 458Lott, 470 double, or even a 500 Jeffrey feel that these rifles are way too small in their hands.

But if folks want to believe these things it's fine with me. Just don't think you're convincing anyone else who has actually done it. 

[Sweet 6.5]

But if folks want to believe these things it's fine with me. Just don't think you're convincing anyone else who has actually done it. 

Sorry for wasting your time, I obviously don't have enough experience for this forum.

Sweet