357 and 125 gn. bullets

[fatercat]

have i read that 125 gn. bullets are hard on 357 mag. handguns due to the high speed hitting the forceing cone? hornady just sent me 100 125gn free for buying their die set.

[Dee]

If you have read that, the person writing it was an idiot. The 125 grain jacketed hollow point in 357 magnum has the BEST "one shot" stopping record in law enforcement history, and STILL maintains it today. I have fired THOUSANDS OF THEM, and have known other officers (I'm retired) that have done like wise. For defense, the round is as good as it gets, and do not confuse it with the 357 Sig. They are not the same. The 357 sig is a 9mm bullet in a 40 S & W case necked down, and the stopping power of the sig has YET to prove itself as an even close equal of the 357 magnum.

[gunblade]

The forcing cone wear issue was the reason Smith & Wesson came out with the L frame models 586, 686, etc.  A steady diet of he 125 gr bullets at magnum velocity will accelerate wear on the forcing cone of medium frame revolvers like the Smith & Wesson 19, 66, etc.  So a lot depends on what type gun you have. 

[Savage]

The problem was with the mdls 19/66. The lighter bullets 110/125 gr variety caused escaping gasses from the cylinder gap to erode the top strap in the area just above the forcing cone. S&W acknowledged the problem and advised against shooting large quantities of these rounds in the "K" frames. As gunblade correctly stated, the introduction of the "L" frame was their solution to the problem. Metallurgy being what it is today, I'd load um up and fire away!
Savage

[Dee]

When I was training back in the 70s the Model 19 was king of the police revolvers. The only problems I saw with high quantities of hot ammo thru them was they would go out of time faster than the N frames. The forcing cones where the same in both models. The L frames were brought out as a balance between the K and the N frames and had nothing to do with the forcing cones.
I wore 2 model 19s out shooting demos on my police range. The cylinder hands and stops went first. I replaced them, and retimed them then shot them until the ratchets wore out. A forcing cone is going to erode REGARDLESS of the Model #, and the 125 grains is no worse than any other 357 mag load.

[v-man]

Maybe this is a good place to ask;
Is this topic related to the warning with my Tuarus Ti .357 to not use bullets lighter than 125grain?

[Mikey]

OK, I'm a bit confused here, now.  I had always thought the problem with the M19s and the hot loadings in 110 and 125 gn was that the fast burning powders used in those loads caused some erosion at the end of the cylinder, with spacers or washers or something, which then caused the revolver to go out of time and need repair.  I had a couple of M19s that I hand carried back to S&W when they were in Springfield and they fixed them on the spot for me while I waited, as I was in uniform at the time. 

However, I was then 'corrected' and told that the problem was not any sort of a 'spacer' or 'washer', but the jacketed bullets impacting the forcing cone and causing it to crack where it was screwed into the frame. 

The later just didn't seem right to me as I had used a couple of M19s to shoot metallic silhouette with heavy 200 gn slugs and they never squeaked a peep.  I also heard that folks who had shot their M19s with standard 158 gn magnum loads didn't seem to have a problem either, and someone said the slower burning powders in those loadings did not cause the same damage as the faster burning powders caused, such as the flame cutting or etching on the underside of the topstrap.  What's the troof??

Right now I am down to one 357 - it is a 30 year old Highway Patrolman with a 3.5" bbl that just loves the 200 gn swc over a Winchester powder charge.  Yes it is the larger N Frame but she sure handles heavy loads.  Mikey.

[blhof]

I  believe the problem was with the 357Max.  With the long case and a 125 bullet you could get 2000+ out of a revolver; that would definitely cause forcing cone wear and was warned against in both the Dan Wesson and Ruger manuals for the 357Max.  However; the TC in 357max doesn't have that problem, due to not having a forcing cone.

[Savage]

The problem, real or imagined, came about in the late 60s, early 70s with the advent of the "Super Vel" loadings. Those 110/125gr loadings certainly cause more metal erosion than the then standard 158 gr loadings that were in general use. Some of us were able to obtain the Super Vel bullets and loaded them to near carbine velocities (attempting to obtain factory advertised velocities) in revolvers over a healthy charge of H 110. The fireball from the muzzle and cylinder gap was a sight to behold! Fortunately, we couldn't afford to shoot them in large quantities, but the flame cutting of the forcing cone and frame was quite evident.  Never had one to go out of time badly, but end shake was another story.  My son is still shooting my personal mdl 19.
Mostly 38spl loads I hope.
Savage

[safetysheriff]

the November 1985 Guns and Ammo "Strictly Handguns" column by Jan Libourel, on page 35 addressed this issue.   Libourel generally seemed like a knowledgeable sort to me.    He said that lightweight jacketed bullets, particularly with slow-burning powders, in large quantities, may have a "sandblast" effect and cause forcing cone erosion.   naturally, he noted the disappointment of that because of the 125 gr' bullet being such a "stopper"!   he liked light charges of Bullseye or intermediate charges of Unique to keep from eroding the revolver (Colt Python was asked about specifically).   

elsewhere it seems that i have read some of the same, but that Ruger metallurgy handles most of this concern with great ease.    Paco Kelly has written about how difficult it is to burn the throat out of a Ruger.

i quote the 1985 issue of this magazine because here in n.e. Ohio at the gun shows you can find significant quantities of OLD literature on firearms going back to the 1960's even.   it's a real treat to read through some of the old Jack O'Connor columns, etc.etc.  that i never saw when i was in my early teens.   naturally, some of those old mag's and books are being brought in by some of the older vendors who will someday quit working the shows.   i buy 'em while i can get 'em.   

take care,

ss'   

[Dee]

That fact of the matter is, is that if a loading will erode the forcing cone of a Model 19 Smith, it will also erode the forcing cones of the Models 27, 28s and the L frames, as well as the Colts, and Rugers. Some erosion is normal. In my youth as an instructor I had the opportunities AND TOOK THEM, to fire THOUSANDS of rounds a year, FREE. I have fired 1000 rounds of ammo in a DAY, out of a Model 19, MANY TIMES. I saw NO MORE erosion than I would have on any other revolver firing the same round, and NEVER saw any frame erosion on the top strap to amount to anything. What I DID see was because of the light weight of the 19, the recoil cause a battering of the cylinder hand face against the cylinder ratchets, and the pistol due to this and wear, would go out of time eventually. A quick fix would be REFITTING a new cylinder hand. There were then, and are now many MYTHS concerning things like this, and in twenty years as a range master, including running a tac unit I seldom saw these myths come to anything close to being true.