Author Topic: Have the 44's improved  (Read 1651 times)

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Offline Roger_Dailey

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Have the 44's improved
« on: May 21, 2007, 05:37:48 AM »
I'm getting close on deciding what to do for this year's deer season.  Right now, a 445 looks like a good choice.  Would a 44 mag. Handi of current mfg. be a good one to extend to 445?

Thanks,
Roger D.

Offline mattparliament

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2007, 06:40:56 AM »
From what has been written around here they have improved.

Also, they are making the handi in the 444 marlin again, might be of consideration for you.
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Offline Ranger J

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2007, 11:09:23 AM »
Have they really improved?  Has anyone actually slugged a ‘new barrel’ and accurately measured the diameter?  What about the twist ????
RJ

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2007, 11:18:23 AM »
Two members have slugged bores of their new 44mag barrels at .430", no one has reported on the twist rate tho.

FWIW, the new .444 barrel slugs at .4308" and has a 1:20" twist, mine shoots one hole groups at 100yd with the 265gr Hornady. ;)

Tim
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Offline wcf3030

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2007, 11:38:02 AM »
Has someone done a range report yet on a new barrel yet?
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Offline quickdtoo

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Offline wcf3030

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2007, 05:23:22 PM »
Thanks quickdtoo for taking the time to link all those post.

What I'd like to see is someone do a extensive cast test with a new barrel if indeed they are now .430.
Might be I'll have to do that myself. ;D
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Offline darat100

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2007, 02:23:42 AM »
Roger

I havea 445 that is very accurate.  I read a lot about the 44 mag before purchasing this from another member.  Several who had the 445 before me said theirs were all much more accurate than the 44 mags, so i decided to give it a try.  Mine is very accurate.  I am not sure about the recoil.  You can load it to really pack a punch, or load it down to some pretty tame loads.  There has been some discussion that the extra velocity helps stabilize the bullet.  I am very ballistically challenged, but it makes sense to me.

Offline murphdog

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 01:58:16 AM »
New member here.  I have cross-posted this response from another thread because it also seems to apply to your question.  Hope thats OK. 

I purchased a 44 mag Handi rifle (my first Handi ever) several weeks ago from a local gunshop, hoping to use it this coming deer season (44mag was just legalized in Indiana).  Because of complaints that I'd heard of about the microgroove 44mag barrels, I made sure it was a 2007 model and had Ballard-style rifling (serial #HX281xxx).  A tightly patched cleaning rod makes about a half turn in the length of the barrel (half turn in 19 inches), suggesting they are still using the 1:38 rate of twist.  Looking into the muzzle, it has 6 lands and grooves.  Two grooves (opposing grooves) are deep and easily seen.  The other 4 grooves appear to be shallower and are harder to see, but can be seen with a good light.  I have never slugged a barrel before, so I can't guarentee I did this right, but I tried to follow the instructions given in the FAQs.   I used a fairly cheap Vernier caliper to measure the land (bore) and groove diameters, and my results were as follows.  Bore diameter of the three opposing pairs of lands were 0.423", 0.423", and 0.422".  Groove diameter of the three opposing pair of grooves were 0.429", 0.426", and 0.426" (suggesting that 4 of the grooves actually are shallower).  As to accuracy, I have been very disappointed in this rifle.  So far, I have only shot it at 50 yards from the bench.  I've put about 65 rounds through the gun so far.  With its favorite ammo (Remington 240gr SJHP) it has averaged 2.2 inch 3-shot groups at 50 yards.  Other rounds (Hornady 300gr XTP, Winchester 250gr Partition Gold, and Winchester 210gr Silvertip) have averaged 2.7 to 2.9 inch groups at 50 yards. 

Duane (murphdog)

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2007, 02:31:27 AM »
Hello murphdog...welcome to GBO ;D I am also from Indiana. I plan on using a 357 Max this year. It looks like you have already looked at the FAQ, but also look at the section on how to make the Handi rifle more accurate. There are many suggestions on how to improve the accuracy of Handi rifles. Some have improved accuracy of 44 mags by going to the 445. Do you hand load? If so you might try the Hornady 265 grain bullet or the Speer 270 Gold Dots, others have found the Hornady XTP's (240 or 300)to be good performers. The 265 was designed especially for rifles. I have found that those usually do about the best in my 44 mag rifles. Good luck to you. ;)
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Offline murphdog

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2007, 03:18:37 AM »
I (murphdog) feel obligated to update my previous post.  I reslugged my barrel using a slightly different technique that seemed to work better for me (got a very nice casting of the lands and grooves).  The CORRECT MEASUREMENTS for my new 44mag handi barrel are: groove diameter is about .429" (average of .429, .429, and .428), and land diameter is .423.  Rate of twist is still 1:38.
Duane

Offline murphdog

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2007, 03:45:01 AM »
LaOtto222,
Thanks for the welcome.  I have to say this is a great forum, and I would never have bought a handi rifle if I didn't have this forum available as a reference. 

Unfortunately, I don't hand load.  I have looked at some of the accurizing tips in the FAQs, and have tried some of the simpler things.  The forend fit isn't the best, so I tried the O-ring free float, and even tried shooting without the forend (completely free-floated barrel).  Did not help the groups any.  Changing from open sights to scope didn't help either, so I don't think the sights are the problem.  So I figure the limiting factor is either the barrel or the trigger (or the guy pulling it).  Actually, I think the guy pulling the trigger is OK, as I can put 300 gr Hornady XTP's into a 1.4 inch group (3-shot, 50-yard) with my blackpowder gun (Cabelas Blueridge, sidelock, open sights).  The very same bullet (in a factory cartridge, of course) is giving me 2.9 inch groups (3-shot, 50-yard) from my handi rifle.  The triggers are very different; my muzzleloader has a set trigger with a very light pull, while my handi rifle has the heaviest trigger pull I've ever experienced (9-10 lb based upon my fishing scale).  A trigger job is the next obvious step.  But I have the nagging feeling that that's not the only problem, as I feel that some of my best controlled trigger pulls still gave me bad groups.  The barrel slugs out to the right size, and I've examined the muzzle crown with a magnifying glass and can't see any problems there, so I don't know where else to go.  I consistently place the front rest behind the hinge, and I think I'm consistently pulling the trigger all the way back to avoid transfer bar problems (though thats hard to judge for sure).  I was hoping to get a smokeless gun that would equal the performance of my muzzleloader, and still allow me to use a scope and avoid the blackpowder cleanup.  Maybe I was just expecting more of this rifle and cartridge than I should expect.  I'm sure this will still be a useful gun. 

Duane

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2007, 01:06:00 PM »
I do not have a 44 mag in a Handi rifle. When I sent my frame in to get it fitted for other barrels, the 44 mag was not available. I really wanted one. I already had a revolver, Marlin 1894 and a Contender barrel in 44 Mag. I settled for a 357 Mag. I wanted it for a short range plinking and as a walk around type gun that was not going to break the bank to shoot. Since I was already set up in 44 Mag, it would be a natural for lead slugs. I had to buy the dies, cases, bullets, primers - everything to get set up in 357 Mag. Any who, I think by mistake I ended up with a better shooting gun. I have had trouble getting decent groups out of my Marlin 1894 and my Contender with a 17" barrel. I have not worked with them a whole lot. I found that the Hornady 265 to do about the best, but not real good. I am a fussy type when it comes to accuracy. That is why I do most of my shooting with 22 rim fires, and 22 center fires. I know there are other guns that can shoot tight groups, but I have not dealt with them and have found the 22's are easy to fix if not shooting well.  Oh yea back on track...I am for sure guessing here, but I think you may only get 2"- 3" 100 yard groups with it even after a trigger job. That is all you really need for the shots I seem to get. I would think and hope that others would jump in here and tell me I am wrong about the group size. I have heard that bedding the fore ends helps, I have not done a Handi yet, but have bedded the action on quite a few other rifles. It is not difficult and can be done in an evening. Good luck to you and let us know how things go ;D
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2007, 01:59:48 PM »
A couple of the fellas in the links I posted earlier are getting plenty acceptable accuracy with their late model 44mag barrels, one with handloads, the other with factory Winchester ammo.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,115216.msg1098367484.html#msg1098367484

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,109949.msg1098330184.html#msg1098330184


EDIT: here's a new report..

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,124928.msg1098439809.html#msg1098439809
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline murphdog

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2007, 02:39:30 AM »
Tim, I see that you are one of the moderators for this forum, and I want to thank you for what you do here.  I’ve noticed that you really stay on top of things, and can always point people to the right informtion.  This must take a lot of your time, but for a first-time handi owner like me this forum is invaluable.  I really appreciate it, as this gun has been a real learning experience for me. 

I may be a little dense, but I think I have finally figured out why my 44 magnum wasn’t shooting well, and the good news is that the problem was NOT the barrel.  Instead, I think it is poor fit and failure of the barrel latch to latch completely.  This dawned on me while I was browsing another website where a guy named Freddie the Reloader described how to accurize break-action rifles, and he made the following statement. “It is utmost importance that the barrel and standing breech face fit tight together…absolutely no gap”, followed by “It is expected that the barrel latch make full and solid contact with the latch seat.”  This triggered a memory that I had forgotten.  The owners manual states “You will hear a distinct click when the action locks closed.”  I have NEVER heard that click.  I had initially brushed it off as a minor defect, as the action felt solidly closed and I never had the pop-open problem that others have described on this forum.  But now the light bulb finally came on and I realized that my barrel latch may not be completely closing against the latch seat.  I immediately took my handi off the rack, closed the action, and then held it up sideways to the light.  Sure enough, I could see a sliver of light between the upper half of the barrel end and the standing breech face.  I grabbed my feeler gauge and measured a .004 inch gap.  I was shocked.  I then opened the action and reclosed it with much greater force (I really whacked it closed).  I still didn’t hear the distinct “click” (though the sound of the barrel hitting the breech face could have obscured a click), but this time when I held the gun up to the light there was almost no gap, and I could not slide a .002 feeler gauge between the barrel and breech face.  SO, depending on how hard I closed the action, the gap between the barrel and the breech face varied by at least .002 inches and maybe up to .004.  This suddenly made a lot of sense, as my large groups were primarily due to vertical stringing.  So, I took the gun out back last night and shot a couple of targets, being sure to really whack the action closed for each shot and checking it against the light.  I produced the two best 50-yard groups I have ever shot with this rifle, 1.2 and 1.6 inches with factory ammo.  That should translate to groups of about 3” at 100 yards, and the kind of performance I was hoping for from this gun.  May not win target competitions, but good enough to take deer.  I had read in the FAQs that it is important to close the action with some authority.  I just didn’t realize how much authority was needed, nor how much it could affect accuracy.  Now I know.  I’m just relieved to know this gun is capable of shooting reasonably accurately

My question for Tim or any other experienced handi owners who have managed to read this far is, do I need to call H&R about the lack of a distinct click on closing the action, or will good solid whacks eventually wear it in properly? 

Duane (now a happy 44 magnum owner)

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2007, 05:14:33 AM »
Thanks Duane.  ;)

There shouldn't be any visible gap at the barrel/standing breech, if you read the barrel fitting instructions, you'll see that a properly fitted barrel will lock up tight on a .001" feeler gauge blade. Make sure the barrel and frame are clean as any amount of debris will keep it from locking up completely. As stated in the FAQ, Handi basics 101 and the owner's manual, the barrel must be closed firmly, specially when new, it's particularly import then until the latch and shelf mate well. If yours still has a visible gap, I recommend you contact H&R and ask that they fix it, also ask for them to cover shipping and do a trigger job done while it's there if it needs it. ;D


Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline murphdog

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Re: Have the 44's improved
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2007, 07:40:30 AM »
Thanks Tim.  I will do that.  I have a feeling I will be very happy with this gun once I work all the bugs out. :)

Duane