New to 1911's: what is an "External Extractor"?

[Ned]

Good Day:

I guess the subject line pretty well sums up my question.

I do not currently own a 1911 and in fact have never fired one but am hoping to get started in Bullseye shooting this year and am trying to decide on a decent pistol for that purpose.

I see references to "external extractors" and can't picture in my mind how that works. Is there a brief description available? I assume there are then also "internal extractors".  Is there a difference in reliability?

Thank you.

Ned

[Flint]

The internal extractor is the original Browning design, it can be seen at the rear of the slide at the right of the hammer, where it is inserted when assembling the slide.  It is retained by the firing pin stop, or retainer.  Look at a Colt.

An external extractor is mounted on the right side of the slide, in a slot behind the ejection port.  Look at the S&W 1911 for an example, or a current Browning Hi-Power..

[Lloyd Smale]

it is a small piece of steel on the side of a 1911 that has been the brunt of more badmouthing of 1911 kimbers then any other part of any other gun ever designed. There have been thousands maybe millions of posts about it on every forum on the net. People would have you believe you should run and hide from any 1911 that has one. YOu wouldnt know it by me. Ive owned many different 1911s over the years and one of the best is my commander kimber thats in the safe right now on the I WILL NEVER SELL shelf!!

[rbwillnj]

Glad your happy with it Lloyd,  but I still wouldn't buy a Kimber with an external extractor.  I've seen too many of them go ping and fly accross the fireing line.  Kimber seems to have gotten the message, as they don't seem to offer them on their new guns.  As for other manufactures external extractors, they seem to be fine.

[Lloyd Smale]

mine did have a few issues when i first got it but after a trip to the kimber custom shop its ran flawlusly for over 15000 rounds with nothing but spring changes and an occasional cleaning. I wish i could say the same about the commander i had before it. A springfield champion that made 3 trips to the factory and still wouldn run anything but factory ball. Broke a slide stop at about 2000 rounds and thats when i said goodby  to it! This isnt my only ex extractor kimber either I owned a cdp ultra and a elispe commander too. The ultra ran like a top right out of the box and the elispe was a little mag sensitive but with wilsons didnt miss a beat. Yes kimber quit using them. Ajusted wrong there a pos system just like an internal that isnt adjusted. But if set up right they probably will never need replacing in the lifetime of the gun. Something that cant be said for an internal. Do i prefer external extractors NO. I like the internal better because i know how to tweek them and dont have to send them to the factory to get adjusted. Would I pass a good deal on an external extractor gun. Hell no. Why should you. Chances are its going to run fine like it is and if it doesnt kimber will fix it or replace it with an internal so what do you have to loose. Ps i shoot ppc and have watch many many kimbers with external extractors on the line and have never seen parts go flying. I have seen a few feeding and extraction problems because of them but never parts flying and i have seen broken internal extractors. Ive got a test for my ccw gun. It must fire a 3000 rounds trouble free and run a thousand of that without cleaning with absolutely no malfunctions before i trust it. Very few guns have made that grade out of the box. Not even many make it after tweeking. Now im talking no alibys other for pour reloades (high primer ect) Now this is with handloads using swc lead bullets. If it is a commander or smaller its going to be used for ccw so if it fails after the first tweaking its sold. If its a target gun and it shoots real well i might give it a little more time because im not trusting my life to it. Just a couple trophys. What do i carry right now. The kimber pro11 comander with an external extractor. Why? because i trust my life to it. Ps to all you springfield fans ive had only one springfield that ive owned pass this test and ive owned a few! Believe it or not the one that passed was a stainless 3.5 inch officers framed gun. It was a beautiful little gun but with the steal frame just a little to heavy for a carry gun/

[Flint]

The reason Browning changed to the Hi-Power's external extractor was for reliability, it is claimed.  The original Browning Hi-Power extractor was very much like the one in the 1911, and it had an inletted retainer in the side of the slide that was also the pivot for the trigger bar.  Deleting the internal extractor also deleted the retainer and its inlet, and the breakable, bendable extractor.

The external extractors use a coil spring, and the rocker pivots on a roll pin, all much cheaper to make, so the real reasons are up to interpretation.

The ColtM1911 extractor sometimes needs a tweak to adjust its tension, but I have heard of very few of them breaking.

[rbwillnj]

Hey, I have three Kimbers and I love them all, and haven't had a spec of problems with any of them.  Two are series 1 guns and the other is a series II gun, all with internal extractors.   I also have six colt 1911's with internal extractors and have never had an extraction (or any other problem with any of them.   I have an S&W M39, and a M52 with external extractors, and haven't had any problems with either of them either.  So its not that I don't like external extractors, I just don't like Kimbers.   They use four parts to replace one.  What sense does that make.

I know Kimber does a pretty good job of standing by their guns, and the guys I know who have had problems with Kimber's extractors have sent them back and had them fixed (sometimes more than once).  I'm just saying, there are a lot of good 1911's out there, and there are always deals to be found, so personally, I'd pass on any Kimber with an external extractor.  Sure it can be fixed, if there is a problem but why take the risk and go through the hassel.

[lonewolfe]

My Kimber Gold Combat II has the external extractor and after several thousand rounds has not had a problem to date.  I was worried at first but there never was a problem.  I agree with Lloyd:  It will never be sold!!1

[rbwillnj]

Why would you sell it if you like it??  Actually, I only ever sold one gun, and I grew to regret it later.  It was a Kimber Stailess Gold Match in 40 S&W, and a Series I to boot.  Why the %$@*& did I sell that thing???

[singleVI]

I know the internal extractors can be taken out when the firing pin comes out, but how do you get an external extractor off the slide? How does not having an internal extractor effect how the firing pin fits with the slide?

[williamlayton]

The "real'" reason for the external is/was/will be a cost savings too the manf.---SOME have proven bad and the problems worked out. All were a work in progress at the first.
The internal ejectors has been worked out for a long time--can be a problem though---heck, Murphy is hanging around all the time.
Blessings

[a45gunslinger]

I've got a Kimber Team match (w /external extractor) and love it. I've never had to tune it ( like an internal) Had a failure to eject on one occasion because it was very dirty- Kevin...Oh I've fired  over 13 thousand rounds through it  since 2003.

[Lloyd Smale]

That seems about the way it goes with the externals. If you got one set up right its a great setup and is just as reliable as an internal if not more and will go many more rounds then an internal without needing adjustment or replacing. But if they dont work right they dont work right! most guys that play with 1911s including me dont have a clue as to how to set one up and it seems like its pot luck even at kimber getting one of there techs to set them up. I know whatever they did to mine was right as its been one of the most trouble free 1911s ive owned since it came back from them. I truely dont believe kimber did it to save money on manufacturing as i would think if anything it cost more to make them like that. I think it was a brain storm of some bean counter that figured he put new and improved on it and sell a slug of them and when they had teathing problems and people started complaining they figured it was better pr to call them bad and go back to the old way then it would be to stick a couple dollars into investigating what they did wrong and doing it right. After all smith and wesson does about the same thing with theres and you dont hear people complain about there external extractors. Its to bad they didnt straighten it up as at least in theroy its a  better system.

[rbwillnj]

I have a friend with a Team Match II that has had it back to Kimber twice.   On his gun, the external just went flying across the range (twice).  Since getting it back the second time, he hasn't had any problems, so Kimber must have figured out how to fix it.    I figure that if you have one and it's working fine, stick with it.  If your looking to buy one, you don't know what you will run into, maybe problems, maybe not, but Kimber should be able to fix it.   As for me, I avoid Kimbers with with external extractors.