Author Topic: 500s&w-460-454? (Read 3381 times)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #30 on:** September 23, 2007, 11:42:31 AM »

willy , sorry , my 454 does just about what my heavy loaded 45 will do ,it just does it a bit farther out ! up close on deer the 454 sometimes goes through to fast to open up like the slower 45 does , it kills but not as much damage as the 45 ! then it also depends on angle and shot placement as you noted you already know all that , you really leave little to say other than " sometimes " it is a big difference and others not so dramatic on deer ! you seem to over look that the big mags make the longer shot easier to make over the 44mag and heavy 45 ! i for one didn't realize all you wanted was damage reports , which is fine just not why i chose the 454 .

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #31 on:** September 23, 2007, 12:11:01 PM »

Quote from: m-g Willy on September 23, 2007, 11:18:19 AM

Well out of all the posts on this thread I only got one answer to my question!
I've used 44mag and heavy loaded 45colt for deer and pig hunting for more than 30 years and have a fair idea what a 44 cast or jhp will do on a deer from about any angle with either of these guns.
I just wanted to know from someone with a fair amount of hunting exp. with the 44 mag. if the bigger guns made much of a differance in wounds and killing power from thier exp.in the hunting field (not paper ballistics.)
I guess not to many people have much exp. shooting game with the cannons .

Willy

I have killed a number or deer and hogs with my 44 Mags. I have also killed several bear and deer with the 460 and 500 Mags. Yes dead is dead. But some people just like big holes.
I chose the 460 mag for my long distance shooting and hunting and my 500 Mag for up close hunting.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #32 on:** September 24, 2007, 01:18:42 AM »

personaly i think if your stuck on the use of jhps your probably better off with the 44 mag. Handguns dont kill by explosive expansion at any level they kill by putting a hole through the vitals. What is needed more then expansion is penetration. Pushing a jacketed bullet at the speeds a 454 or 460 will shoot them at is a dicey situation. They will certainly expand better at 200 yards then a 44 hp will. But up close could fail miserably. The big guns do something that better then a 44. They will shoot bullets that are even slightly heavier with bigger metplats at the same speed. YOu have to keep in mind though that bullet selection in a handgun is what its all about. You have to match the bullet to the game and the speed you shooting. The only way an identical bullet shot out of a 45 colt will do more damage then the same out of a 454 is if the bullet fails and stops penetrating due to over expansion. The ammont of time a bullet takes to go through an animal is miliseconds. Ive done enough penetration testing to know that the wound channel from a faster bullet is allways wider and just about allways shallower. Now if that bullet is slow enough to hold together and penetrate substainaly deaper its going to disrupt as much or more tissue and if the faster slug fails before it reaches the vitals all that wound channel is for nothing. The animal is going to run off and die a miserable death. I dont use jacketed bullet of any kind in a handgun anymore. Ive shot to much game and have done enough testing to know that cast are superior in ANY situation. They may not give you that one in 20 drop in your tracks kill that a jhp will if everything goes perfect but ive yet to have one properly hit go out of sight. I cant say that ive saw where a properly placed jacketed bullet has failed on a whitetail but i have seen it in person on pigs and bear. A cast bullet will penetrate EVERY time to the vitals and it may not show you a dramatic wound channel with the insides tore to hell and bloodshot meat but if you look at a cast bullet wound channel it is much longer then a jacketed as they penetrate much deaper and the overall wound channel size is very simular. Now were talking cast bullets and thats where the big guns come into there own. A bigger caliber gun is going to put a bigger hole through the animal and create a bigger wound channel. Thats a given. Will it kill faster? I would think so. But every animal acts differently when hit and theres nothing scientific that can be stated about it. Ive dropped deer in there tracks with a 3220 using cast and have had them make 75 yards with a good hit with a 500 linebaugh. Does that make the 3220 the better deer round. I dont think so. Where these big guns come into there own is on larger game. With there heavier bullets they have to ability to break really big bone and put a larger hole through something that has alot more blood it needs to loose before it stops. A properly loaded 44 mag or 45 colt has taken the biggest game on the planet. A good hardcast 300 out of either loaded to 1100 to 1200 fps will do alot of penetrating. Not quite as much as the bigger guns but pretty dammed close. The major trick to getting them to do it is using a good bullet at a sane but effective speed cast out of an alloy that will not deform in any way. Once a cast bullet deforms its penetration slows drastically. Again thats where the bigger guns shine as the bigger bullets seem to hold together slighly better cast out of the same alloy and shot at the same speed. Momentum comes into play here to as a 400 grain bullet shot at the same speed as a 300 grain bullet is harder to stop. Thats just phyisics. Thats why a 400 grain 475 at 900 fps will usualy outpenetrate a 45 300 at 1200 fps and again penetration=wound channel. Now ive killed a good amount of game using many differnt handguns and rilfles and like i said its tough to make a blanket statement. Its impossible to recreate the exact same senerio on the exact same animal so how can you really compare. Anyone that has done enough hunting knows that some animals just dont want to die. Ive blow the heart right out of a deer with a rifle and had them run a 100 yards before dieing. But i do know that bigger is usually better. If it werent wed all still be hunting with 2520s, 3220s and 4440s. I also know that the buffalo hunters didnt knock down the doors of the gunshops wanting a smaller gun. I also know that a man in the field with a big bore pistol that can actually shoot it sure isnt any worse off then a man with a smaller one as long as hes choosen his projectile properly. I also know that at least iin my opinion velocity does very little for a handgun over a certain point. Even tough cast bullets have a limit to what they can take. Push them to fast and they can fail too. Granted there not designed to fail like a jacketed bullet. I know redhawk will roast me for this but smiths 460 was nothing but a marketing ploy. The 454 was allready here and pushed bullets to fast at the top end allready. To tack another 400-500 fps on it just to claim they had the fastest shooting handgun in the world was kind of silly. To do it they had to load a light rifle bullet as theres no other bullets cast or jacketed that will hold together at those speeds. Id put the 44 mag or 45 colt with a 250 cast a 1000 fps up against it any day in a penetration test! Loaded properly with say a 350 cast 45 slug at under 1500 fps it would be a formitable weapon. But if i have to drag around a 5 lb gun with a scope on it to shoot a deer at 200 yards im going to reach for a 3030 or 35 rem carbine. Or even a tc contendor or encore. It makes no difference at 200 yards if a guy has a single shot or a revolver. If you need a second shot you shouldnt have taken the first! At least the tc doesnt weight 5 lbs. I hunt with a handgun for the same reason i hunt with a bow. For the challange. I dont see where the 460 gives one bit more challange then shooting a lever gun. But the nice thing is that its a free country and everyone doesnt have the same tastes in firearms or the same needs or wants in the field. My opinions come from field experience and yes m-g williy ive killed a substaintial number of animals with handguns and also have spent many many hours testing both on paper and testing bullet performance. If I hadnt i wouldnt be posting here but your asking a question that is about impossible to answer with a black and white response. There are just to many variables in play here and your going to just get to many answers from guys that havent. Guys that have shot one or two deer with a 44 or 357 and because one my have dropped dead with the load there using think that its the ultimate. Or guys that had a buddy tell them or read on the internet that a certain gun or load will kill everything within a mile if they just pull the trigger. Bottom line is you cant go wrong with this statement. USE THE BIGGEST HANDGUN YOU CAN SHOOT ACCURATELY IN THE FIELD IN ANY FIELD CITUATION AND LOAD IT WITH THE HEAVIEST CAST BULLET YOU CAN GET TO 1100 FPS. Its not allways necessary but ive never seen any down side to doing it.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #33 on:** September 24, 2007, 01:50:14 AM »

Another great post Lloyd Smale.

craiginok · « **Reply #34 on:** September 24, 2007, 11:06:18 AM »

I tried out the 460 yesterday with 50 of those 395 grain,cast performance,gas check with a big meplat,average on the chrono for the first 10 was 1516 fps,think that will kill a big hog dead.
I have a few encore actions and barrels also, but on my scales they are all heavier than the 8 3/8 smith,I don,t even have a gun with a scope on it,closest thing is an ashley peep set up on my ruger #1, in 416 rigby,thats a thumper,i even read in one of these forums that a large bore pistol had out penetrated the rigby(might have) but the pistol more than likely was shooting a punch bullet and they probably shot a soft tip in the rigby. With a rigby SOLID 400 grain goes 2400 fps,it will penetrate and not deform.thanks,craig

m-g Willy · « **Reply #35 on:** September 24, 2007, 12:02:22 PM »

Lloyd,
Good post ,but can you tell me about the animals you have killed with the bigger guns?(range? shot placement?damage done?
And what you think a 44mag. would have done with the same shot.

Willy

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #36 on:** September 24, 2007, 12:56:45 PM »

3 biggest animals ive killed with a handgun were buffalo between 800 and 1100 lbs. Two with the 500 and one with the 44 mag. One shot with the 500 went right down and died quickly one with the 500 made about 30 yards and nose dived. The one with the 44 made about 70 yards and nose dived and had to have its neck cut to blead out. Only one shot hit serious bone and that was with the 500 and it broke both shoulders and exited. The other two were a heart and a lung shot. Tough to judge though as buffalo tend to absorb alot of lead sometimes and show very little reaction to hits from any gun. The one shot with the 44 was the smallest and theres a big differnce in a 800 lb buffalo and a 1100 lb one and I have to admit the 44 was a cast hp. something i would have never gone hunting with for buffalo intentionaly. The opertunity arose and it was what was handy. Tell you what though if you get a chance to stare down a 2000 plus lb bull your 44 will feel pretty small! Bottom line in my opinion the 44 or 45 loaded with a good heavy cast bullet is capable of taking game up to a 1000lbs. Any more or if the animal is dangerous id want more gun. Ive watched even cow buffalo contiue eating after hits by big guns and if they decided they didnt like you id doubt if you could stop them every time with any handgun and id want the biggest one i could shoot in my hand if it happened. To be honest reaction to game smaller then 500 lbs using any gun from 44 up to 50 is hard to judge. Id have to say though that the pigs ive shot with the .475s and .500s tend to drop right now and the ones shot with 44s and 45s tend to travel a short distance. Deer and bear seem to react about the same with any good hit by a 44 or a 500. Thats about as scientific as i can get.

mk454 · « **Reply #37 on:** September 24, 2007, 02:05:05 PM »

Lloyd, i sure enjoy many of your posts, and i agree with most, however, i really haven't hunted much that i thought a .500 linebaugh would help on killing above and beyond my 335 gr hardcasts from corbon or the 340 grain beartooth loads i use and i would disagree a bit on the terminal performance of the FA 260 grain bullet pushed just near 2000fps out of my 83. sure works quite explosively on deer at that speed and hogs and haven't had one fail either. and yes there's a difference in trajectory i notice for sure above what i'm comfortable with in my .475. that said, i like all big bores and i don't think we need an excuse to shoot anything bigger and badder though my next pistol will be a decked out fa 83 .44 mag with all the bells and whistles and octagon barrels. that said, i intend to own all of the major big bore pistols.

i was at the range sighting in my new 375 H&H and i got alot of the "what do you need with that" kind of comments. it seems only a few out there understand that sometimes smaller sure isn't better and i couldn't imagine a better worldwide hunting caliber from elk, bear, even deer, to buffalo and dangerous game!!!!! can't imagine a better new pistol other than that .44 mag than a .500 wyoming express out of the FA83!! if you gotta explain it they wouldn't understand it.

m-g Willy · « **Reply #38 on:** September 25, 2007, 10:52:51 AM »

Thanks Lloyd

Willy

bigfish44 · « **Reply #39 on:** September 25, 2007, 12:45:26 PM »

Hi all .I've been lurking here for years. This may be my first post I'm not sure.
I own a 500 and I don't think it was for my ego. I think it was I wanted one.
I also have a 45 colt 44 mag(4).I have them because I want them.Bad mouthing
them is like Zumbo bad mouthing the AR-15. Tom

kennisondan · « **Reply #40 on:** September 26, 2007, 05:30:27 PM »

stand together or fall separately..
here here
dk
I like everything that goes bang and couple of things that go silently... guns bows you name it, and crossbows are good too.. it is whatever you want to use like whatever you want to say is ok too.. I am sure we all would agree that the most important thing is that you enjoy what you do for what ever reason you do it and that we all get to do it for a long time to come and our kids and grandkids can choose what they want to shoot too...
,,,amen.
(god bless America, and ruger and smith and wesson and TC and Remington, and ..... momma and daddy and...... )
dk

buck460XVR · « **Reply #41 on:** October 06, 2007, 06:08:11 AM »

I guess I don't have much of an issue of what anyone else uses to hunt deer as long as it's legal for the area they hunt. As for the power/speed/trajectory thing the same arguement can be made for those that hunt with a bow. Why do some feel the need for a high speed compound when a old fashioned recurve or longbow kills them just as dead with a well placed shot? My contention is whatever works for you is the best answer. I have hunted and killed deer with bows(recurve, long and compound) shotguns with slugs, rifles of many different calibers and revolvers. Sometimes it was cause I had nuttin else to hunt with and at other times it was just my preference at the time. Again, consistent shot placement is the key and this is a result of practice, good equipment, experience, knowledge of you quarry and last, but in my opinion one of the most important, your confidence in you abilities with the weapon you have with you and the knowledge of it's limitations.

For those of you that think the 44 is the perfect gun for all game at all ranges, more power to you and good luck hunting. Just give those of us that use handguns of lesser and greater proportions for hunting(yes, I now use a .357 and a .460, but have in the past hunted with a .44) a break and respect our right of choice. No different than being a lab owner and being able to enjoy watching a good pointer work a covey of quail. Just because there are more lab owners than pointer owners don't make them the perfect dog for all hunting situations.

I enjoy the .460 primarily because it is different and not everyone has one. Is it more gun that I need for most deer? Maybe. Will it ever be too small for the game I'm hunting? I certainly wouldn't think so. Will I make a lot of 200 yard shots with it? Probably not, but it does have the capabilities to do so....efficiently and with accuracy. In the same breath, I enjoy the .357 with iron sights for hunting deer because of the challenge of getting within my comfort zone of 35 yards. To me it is all about the hunt. The kill is secondary. For those that think that the kill and the gain of the meat is their primary reason for hunting.....good for you and good luck. I hope you do well. For those of you that are so intolerant of others choices, so animate and so quick with facts and figures that you gun is the best.............c'mon, relax and enjoy the hunt.
.

BlkHawk73 · « **Reply #42 on:** October 06, 2007, 06:18:04 AM »

I also see these are more bragging material than actually a needed advancement over other cartridges. Shot placement is everything since game animals haven't gotten toughter hides. The whole super magnumitis syndrome is rediculous. The .44 and for that matter, the .41 and 45 Colt are more than capable.
I know there's some that have played the big hand connon thing for long time but all those that jumped abpard when the 500 and 460 came out, actually goes back as far as the 454 I think, many got them just for the oooo and ahhh factor for making a tough guy impression (compensating for something maybe? )

I see the difference between the two typs of shooter of these as the serious ones take the time to reload to tweak the loads and get the utmost performance, both in accuracy and termianl performance) out of the package where as the braggards simply buy a box, shoot it just for the big boom. The performance getters and the attentions hounds.

m-g Willy · « **Reply #43 on:** October 07, 2007, 02:51:11 PM »

Quote from: bigfish44 on September 25, 2007, 12:45:26 PM

Hi all .I've been lurking here for years. This may be my first post I'm not sure.
I own a 500 and I don't think it was for my ego. I think it was I wanted one.
I also have a 45 colt 44 mag(4).I have them because I want them.Bad mouthing
them is like Zumbo bad mouthing the AR-15. Tom

Where did you get the idea I was bad mouthing them?
I asked a question because I have no exp. with them and wanted to know from those who did!
You might find it hard to believe ,but some people here come here to learn from those that might just know something .

Willy

Redhawk45 · « **Reply #44 on:** October 08, 2007, 03:45:49 AM »

I think we should ban all talk about the 460 and 500

It seems anytime someone asks about those calibers the flood gates are opened with either haters or people who use them. I figure about 85% of the people don't have either one of them

I have a smith 460 and I enjoy it. I use it for whitetail deer. It might be a little overboard, but to me it is just a faster moving 45caliber bullet. This is America and you can buy whatever you want. Do we need all the crap we have, NO! But can we have it, YES! If you go with a 44mag that will do the job. If you go with a 460 it will also do the job. I don't consider myself an big ego kind of guy, I just like big bore handguns. Just my two cents, and please haters don't come after me

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #45 on:** October 08, 2007, 06:02:52 AM »

Don't stop the post its easy to pick the haves from the have nots ! I shoot what i want to , could care less about what others think . Most have no idea what a big bore handgun will do ! they can't face the fact that you extend the range not create some hand cannon !
I tell people i shoot light bullets in the 454c. and they look at me like I'm crazy . They can't understand the concept of a flatter shooting gun . All they hear is bigger and badder !
I listen with interest on the 480 , thinking about getting one .
you have to look at the have nots as a comedy ! laugh and go on !

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #46 on:** October 08, 2007, 11:31:22 AM »

Quote from: BlkHawk73 on October 06, 2007, 06:18:04 AM

I also see these are more bragging material than actually a needed advancement over other cartridges. Shot placement is everything since game animals haven't gotten toughter hides. The whole super magnumitis syndrome is rediculous. The .44 and for that matter, the .41 and 45 Colt are more than capable.
I know there's some that have played the big hand connon thing for long time but all those that jumped abpard when the 500 and 460 came out, actually goes back as far as the 454 I think, many got them just for the oooo and ahhh factor for making a tough guy impression (compensating for something maybe? )
I see the difference between the two typs of shooter of these as the serious ones take the time to reload to tweak the loads and get the utmost performance, both in accuracy and termianl performance) out of the package where as the braggards simply buy a box, shoot it just for the big boom. The performance getters and the attentions hounds.

Most of what you said is just your opinion and not fact. I happen to own several 500 and 460 Mags. I have owned the 500 Mag when it was first on the market, I got it in the form of a BFR, they beat S&W out with there own round and since I have bought several S&W 500 Mags. When the 460 Mag came out, I received the first one the gun shop here got, I have been shooting and hunting with both of my 460's and 500 Mags. I used a 454 Casull for many years before that. I bought my big bore handgun to use, I have shot well over 6000 of the 500 Mag rounds and over 3000 of the 460 Mag rounds. I don't do it to impress anyone or try to be a big shot with the ahhh factor. 95% of the time I shoot my hand cannons, I am alone or with a buddy that has one also. When I am hunting I am alone and don't have anyone to impress but myself.

Now this is my opinion, most guys that make posts like you have are not big bore shooters. You criticize others choices and make blanket statements.

kennisondan · « **Reply #47 on:** October 08, 2007, 04:22:07 PM »

"give peace a chance..."

aw heck with it..

I LOVE MY BIG GUN IT IS.. WELL ,,,"BIG"....

actually I do not let on that I am shooting a bigger than 44 gun, I just shoot it, and enjoy it... if someone asks, I will tell them .. and add that I have it loaded down for comfort while shooting 420 grain cast at up to a hundred yards accurately off hand... I just do it because I want to use the same gun whether I need it or not, to get really good with it in case I get to shoot larger game, and to learn about something different... the big bores loaded down are absolutely awesome.. lots of momentum with big bullets and absolutely comfortable .. and capable of going up the power ladder past what my other guns can do.... that is awesome too... I am fairly humble about my custom guns, and big bores, etc. there is little reason to have a rifle that will exceed 3 inches of accuracy at 100 yards if I am shooting below 200 yards at deer sized game.. but I just want one that does...ot to show off, but cause it satisfies ME...
I don't need one that will drop very little at 300 since most my shots are 200 and under, but I want one, in case and cause I want that level of confidence and accuracy and it adds to my own hunting shooting and collecting pleasure.. ego is not it... it is just choice..

for those of you who think EGO IS THE REASON FOR MY HAVEING A BIG BORE... IT IS YOU WHO ARE EXPERIENCING AN ENVY RELATED PROBLEM I WILL CALL : EGO DEFLATION...
SO I SAY TO THOSE OF YOU....

"MY GUN IS BIGGER THEN YOUR GUN....MY GUN IS BIGGER THAN YOURS...
your gun is a little bitty kitty killer peep squeek pop gun..."

well I COULD say that but I won't..
LOL
all guns are good .. all shooting assures we will all shoot and our kids can shoot... bring your guns big or small and exercise that right to do so and support one another... it is all about choice... not ego, not anything but choices and experiences and love of the sport and we all share that... I do not hunt for ego either.. I like the meat and the challenge... (although I do look good in camo.. I think, anyway._)
MY NEW TAG LINE :
"IS THAT A BIG GUN CONCEALED IN YOUR CAMO OR ARE YOU JUST EXCITED TO SEE ME .. ?"
dk

odoh · « **Reply #48 on:** October 08, 2007, 04:29:01 PM »

Redhawk1's opinion X2

Just getting back into shooting/hunting and being on social security image concerns/issues are so far gone that I can't recall any

I suppose some youthful person may go for the mostest maximus but then thats his/her business and what America and free enterprise is about. That someone would blanket condemn others that think/feel/conduct their lives differently seems like sourgrapes to me.

I jumped into this pistol thing kind of fast ~ squandered most of my life on family/others and not much time left for fun so I gotta move fast. My maximus is a 460 but have several 38/357s, 44mags and a couple of 454's. In that me be new, it will be awhile before I can offer valid opinion game performance but I dearly appreciate each. Right now, I marvel at how manageable the 460 is ~ suppose its the recoil management systems utilized in these current technology revolvers ~ that being grips and compensators.

A question that comes to my mind that nobody has addressed related to the game field is 'noise'. I can't afford to leave any more of my hearing in the woods. What are the experienced/seasoned hunters doing when hunting? Electrical/switch ear muffs? I bought a set but dunno when/if I can acclaimate w/them.

Gene R · « **Reply #49 on:** October 08, 2007, 04:35:23 PM »

"THANK GOD" this is America and we still have the right to buy and shoot the guns we choose for any LEGAL reason we choose, the only reason I my self don't own one of the really big boys, is at this point I may not be able to handle the recoil. When I master my 45LC, and i think I can handle one, I WILL BUY ONE....I would love to be able to make 150 yard shots and possible longer on deer.

Free to buy what I want and damn proud!!!!!!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #50 on:** October 09, 2007, 12:01:42 AM »

yup its america and a guy has the right to pick the wrong gun or agree with me and pick the right one

kennisondan · « **Reply #51 on:** October 09, 2007, 03:03:23 PM »

if anybody has reconsidered their 460 SW or 500 purchase and wanting to assuage their guilt for buying a gun like that for ego purposes, I will help them punish themselves by offering a low price and enjoying their loss .... in a BIG way.
dk
big guns little guns heavy guns light guns... the worst I have had were simply tremendous... and better.
dk

corbanzo · « **Reply #52 on:** October 09, 2007, 06:04:26 PM »

You know one of the things that I do like about new magnum cartridges is the expansion of use for the old ones. Such as in my .454RB I can load 360 grainers in .45 colt cases at 1150 fps (ruger only load). It is a max load, but it feels just fine in my .454. Same as with the .460, pushing the .454 to it's upper limits in the .460 makes you feel a little more comfortable.

Plus bigger guns are fun. No better way to turn a head than with a .500.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #53 on:** October 10, 2007, 01:33:07 AM »

I have a 44mag. derringer , Its best to wear a leather glove to shoot it . I bring it out when someone is feeling MACHO .
seems to take some of the macho out of them , then do ya'll think 300 gr jacketed bullets are to much for it ?
I know why did i get it , well i just like them , carry it with snake shot alot and on occasion as a back up . Most will admit if someone is close and doing something to you that hurts one of these most likely will convince them to stop !

corbanzo · « **Reply #54 on:** October 10, 2007, 01:29:19 PM »

How much does that things weigh? My 28oz titanium .44 is a pain to shoot. And the cylinder is titanium... so it is rated for +p... so I go a little over the top sometimes... ow.

Even the short barreled 500's still have a big steel frame.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #55 on:** October 12, 2007, 01:45:00 AM »

not too much !