Author Topic: Black powder in a .500 Handy? (Read 1254 times)

Walks with a gimp · « **on:** October 02, 2007, 01:37:17 PM »

In researching my old Lyman reloading manual, it looks like the .500 S&W is very close in length to the 50/70 Sharps. It actually holds close to 70 grains of Pyrodex powder. I'm thinking about loading a full case of Pyrodex behind a 440 grain Cast Performance LBT style solid with a gas check,, which I have. I'd seat the bullet about half way in the case due to the long lead in the throat of the chamber on this rifle (the lands touch the front of the bullet with only the gas check below the case mouth).

Will the gas check stay on with this load? I want a softer shooting load than what full house hand loads deliver to the old shoulder. I'm taking this gun with me to Texas on a hog hunt in February!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** October 02, 2007, 02:23:58 PM »

There are plenty of light loads to shoot using smokeless powder, no need to reinvent the wheel here with possibly unsafe loads. John Taffin's article on the 500 Handi has data for ya, Hodgdon has data for Trail Boss too.

Tim

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_1_53/ai_n16866654/pg_4

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Walks with a gimp · « **Reply #2 on:** October 02, 2007, 02:40:45 PM »

Reading in my Lyman reloading book, I see them mention using dacron wads in front of light powder loads in the reduced load selection but no mention of it in one of your links above.

I wouldn't think a 50/70 sharps load would be dangerous in this arm that is made to 50,000 CUP pressures. The Sharps case is 1.750 and the .500 S&W is 1.620 I believe... A short Sharps

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** October 02, 2007, 02:47:09 PM »

Hodgdon specifically says fillers are not required.

Tim

Filler material other than card wads should not be used with Pyrodex. No filler materials are required for smokeless loads. Improper fillers may alter the burning characteristics of powders.

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/index.php

Swampman · « **Reply #4 on:** October 02, 2007, 03:33:23 PM »

I think it would work fine. A lot of folks use lubricated felt wads over blackpowder to keep the fouling soft. I think I'd rather use a smokeless powder like Trailboss so I don't have to clean the gun but once a year.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(std0hrbjkx0ogn45gywgxufz))/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=2&subID=37&styleID=124

Walks with a gimp · « **Reply #5 on:** October 02, 2007, 04:29:58 PM »

I'll probably try more loads after deer season but I know that BP or the substitutess can be very consistent for accuracy, which this gun seems to be without..

handirifle · « **Reply #6 on:** October 02, 2007, 06:09:01 PM »

As long as there in ZERO gap between the bullet and the powder, or you can have the powder, with a card wad on top, with the bullet seated on top of the card wad, but NO spaces in the case. This allows BP and BP substitutes to explode, rather than a controlled burn, and YES it could destroy that 50,000 PSI weapon in these circumstances.

If you load the bullet forward in the case, it still has to be seated against the powder.

If all you want is reduced loads, the go with the info you're getting from the other members here, but fillers do not work the same for BP as they do for smokeless. In a 50% smokeless load, the filler serves to keep the powder against the primer for more even ignition, but the burn rates are not altered, even if no filler is used. Not so with black powder, if there is open space, it can actually alter the burn rate, making it an explosive, not what you want in the chamber.

Load it with BP or Pyrodex, and a card, between the gas check and powder, seated firmly against each other, and you'll most likely be pushing that 440gr bullet about 1500fps. It should be a pleasant load compared to the 500 factory stuff.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 02, 2007, 06:16:07 PM »

My thoughts are quite simple on this...If you want a Black Powder gun...then buy one...If you want a center fire rifle in a pistol cartridge...then buy that...Trying to make one out of the other is fool hardy and dangerous...no matter what you think...Call the companies who's powder your wanting to use and ask them...and see what they tell ya before jumping in blindly...Then you should know wither it's a good idea or not...

Mac

dumgunny · « **Reply #8 on:** October 02, 2007, 06:38:22 PM »

I vote for the Trailboss solution. Why you would want to clean up after black powder is beyond me. Not that the Handi wouldn't handle it fine, but detail stripping for cleaning between sessions would be a real PITA!
JMH2¢

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #9 on:** October 03, 2007, 05:06:09 AM »

Re: Trailboss powder, the MSDS lists a potassium nitrate component. You might want to clean it every time or run the risk of corrosion.

Swampman · « **Reply #10 on:** October 03, 2007, 11:12:54 AM »

There is no real need to clean smokeless powder guns as long as they will function and are still accurate.

Folks are still hung up on excessive cleaning from the days of corrosive ammo.

Once a year is plenty.

Walks with a gimp · « **Reply #11 on:** October 03, 2007, 11:53:19 AM »

I know about the potential problems with reduced loads and having space inside the case. Not what I was refering to here, the case holds close to 70 grains of powder and in a muzzleloader the powder is compressed on every loading. My mention of seating the bullet out a bit would still compress the powder. I've shot BP guns for about 17 years so I'm not afraid to clean a gun after a shooting session, I just want a softer shot without buying powder for a single loading to find out that it's still spraying bullets.

If I have to do much more to this gun to get it to shoot,, it's getting traded for something that will shoot. My .223 is a tack driver though..

Swampman · « **Reply #12 on:** October 03, 2007, 12:03:37 PM »

It's probably not the gun. It should be pretty accurate. Do you take the forearm off frequently? Have you tried the tips section of this forum?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** October 03, 2007, 12:24:45 PM »

The best option to get cast bullets to shoot accurately is to slug the bore and use bullets that are .001"-.002" larger than the groove diameter, shooting undersized cast bullets is probably the most common factor in inaccuracy, the shallow rifling in H&R barrels compounds that issue IMO. The best shooting of the two factory cast bullets that I've tried are Ranger Rick's, the 700gr shoots 2" or less at 100yds, he has several sizes available, the samples he sent with my 700gr order measure slightly oversize at .502" which likely accounts for their better accuracy, the 440gr Cast Performance shot

Tim

http://www.lsstuff.com/ranger-rick/

Swampman · « **Reply #14 on:** October 03, 2007, 02:10:22 PM »

The one John Taffin tested was very accurate.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_1_53/ai_n16866654

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** October 03, 2007, 02:21:48 PM »

All of those group sizes are at 25yds, the best being 5/8", that's over 2" at 100yds, and most his 25yd groups are over 1" which makes 100yd groups 4"+, not what I consider "very accurate".

Quote

Groups are the result of three shots at 25 yards

Tim

Swampman · « **Reply #16 on:** October 03, 2007, 02:36:14 PM »

"I thought the 440/10-grains load was great until I tried the CPBC 370-grain version over the same powder charge. These are a little faster at 1,000 fps, shoot even easier and are accurate enough to cut one very slightly oblong hole measuring .625" in diameter. That translates to a 3-shot group of 1/8" and I can't even hold a rifle this steady"

Maybe a flying Buick doesn't need to be that accurate.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** October 03, 2007, 02:43:42 PM »

Look at all the rest of his groups for cripes sake, that's a nice plinkin load, and respectable for a handgun at 25yds, but it's a rifle.

Tim

Quote

NEF .500 S&W HANDI-RIFLE
FUN/HUNTING LOADS

Bullet Load Velocity Group Size
brand, weight (powder, charge (fps) (inches)
weight, grains)

OREGON TRAIL 370 GC Trail Boss 11.7 1,028 1 1/2
CAST PERK BULLET 370 GC Unique 10 999 1/8!!
CAST PERF. BULLET 370 GC H4227 25 1,298 1
CAST PERF. BULLET 370 GC IMR4227 1,327 1 1/8
CAST PERF. BULLET 440 GC Unique 10 935 5/8
CAST PERF. BULLET 440 GC H4227 25 1,312 5/8
CAST PERF. BULLET 440 GC IMR4227 27 1,326 1 1/8
DRY CREEK 440 KEITH Trail Boss 10 926 1 1/2
DRY CREEK 440 KEITH Universal 1,122 1 1/2
DRY CREEK 440 KEITH IMR4227 27 1,332 1 1/4

Notes: Groups are the result of three shots at 25 yards.

NEF .500 S&W HANDI-RIFLE
HUNTING HANDLOADS

Bullet Load Velocity Group Size
(brand, weight) (powder, charge (fps) (inches)
weight, grains)

CAST PERF. BULLET 370 GC H4227 30 1,513 1 1/2
CAST PERF. BULLET 400 GC 5744 32.5 1,472 1 1/8
CAST PERF. BULLET 440 GC H4227 30 1,521 1 1/2
CAST PERF. BULLET 440 GC 5744 32.5 1,461 3/4
OREGON TRAIL 370 GC H4227 30 1,585 1 1/2
DRY CREEK 440 KEITH H4227 30 1,552 7/8
DRY CREEK 440 KEITH 5744 32.5 1,477 3/4
SIERRA 400 JFP 5744 32.5 1,419 5/8

Notes: Groups are the result of three shots at 25 yards.

NEF .500 S&W HANDI-RIFLE
FACTORY HUNTING LOADS

Load Velocity Group Size
(brand, weight) (fps) (inches)

BUFFALO BORE 400 JFN 2,035 1 1/8
BUFFALO BORE 440 LFNGC 1,497 1 1/2
BUFFALO BORE 440 LFNGC/HEAVY 1,925 1
COR-BON 275 BARNES 2,068 1 1/8
COR-BON 400 JSP 1,971 1 1/2
COR-BON 440 HARD CAST 1,947 1 1/2
HORNADY 300 EVOLUTION 2,248 3/4
HORNADY 350 XTP/MAG 2,056 3/4
HORNADY 500 FP/XTP 1,546 5/8
WINCHESTER 400 PLATINUM TIP HP 1,978 7/8

Notes: Groups are the result of three shots at 25 yards.

Swampman · « **Reply #18 on:** October 03, 2007, 03:15:02 PM »

I'd like to try these.

http://www.kdm-custom-bullets.com/store/index.html

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** October 03, 2007, 05:09:51 PM »

Been there, done that with the KDM data.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,121843.msg1098415171.html#msg1098415171

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,121843.msg1098426870.html#msg1098426870

Walks with a gimp · « **Reply #20 on:** October 06, 2007, 03:51:51 PM »

Well I did a little reloading today using Barnes 275 grain XPB's and 42 grains of H110 and a Winchester primer. Seated to the canelure but not crimped and shooting at 50 yards produced a ragged one hole group with 4 shots with a sand bag rest. The group was shifting to the right with each shot so before the 5th shot i moved the scope setting to the right 2 clicks.. Flier about 2 inches high/left

I've got a chronograph but forgot to use it.. Recoil was,, more than I want

I'm still thinking about those black powder loads but haven't tried them yet, maybe tomorrow.

Walks with a gimp · « **Reply #21 on:** October 06, 2007, 03:53:33 PM »

Whoops, meant to say that I moved the scope to the left 2 clicks