Anyone using the 9x23 in a 38 super?

[moxgrove]

 I have been thinking about picking up a 38 super conversion for my Witness 10mm. If for no other reason than to use the 18 cap mags for plinking. It is also something different. I know a fair number of people have used them in the past. I just wanted to hear straight from the horses" mouths.

[Mikey]

moxgrove:  I have used 9x23 Winchester in my 38 Supers and I have also used 9x23 brass to reload for my 38 Supers - no problems, works like a charm.  Mikey.

[moxgrove]

 Thanks, Mikey . I just wanted to make sure it was a good thing to do, and not something some people were just doing anyway. It made sense looking at the brass that it should be fine, but I read a rant on Burnscustom railing against it in chambers not specifically chambered for it. They have identical outside dimensions , so it seemed odd that it might not.

[Mikey]

mox - the 9x23 case is basically a rimless 38 Super.  The 38 super is a semi-rimmed cartridge and much of its earlier lack of accuracy was due to its small rim and the fact that the major manufacturers of handguns in that caliber made their barrels to headspace on that small rim.  A few custom barrel makers, Bar-Sto for example, made their 38 Super barrels to headspace on the case mouth, allowing for much greater accuracy.

Those who rant may not just be ranting.  The 9x23 Winchester is a factory loading of what the 38 Super can and has been reloaded to - a 125 gn hp moving at 1425'/sec.  My Lyman 43rd and 45th editions list 7.7 gns of Unique under a 130 gn slug for a max load for that bullet weight and the 125s over that loading chrono at 1425'/sec.  The 9x23 Winchester is one hot number and if the mistake is made to chamber that round in an older 38 Auto (same case dimentions as the 38 Super) pistol there could be trouble. 

There are other 9x23 cases out there that are of european design:  the 9mm Largo, 9mm Export, 9mm Steyr, 9mm Bergmann and 9mm Bergmann-Bayard.  The casings can be used if found to be reloadable but most are not.  Many of these rounds are loaded slightly longer than the 38 Super/9x23 Winchester and although they will chamber they may not fit well enough into the magazine. 

I believe the 38 Super is 22.9mm long and the 9x23 is 23mm long but I think that may be the difference twixt the semi-rimmed and the rimless designs.  The 9x23 may actually be a stronger case design.  As previously mentioned, I have shot factory 9x23 Winchester from my 38 Super barrels and mixed 9x23s and 38 Supers in the same magazine with the same harges and bullets and never knew the difference when the gun went off.  Functioning was flawless.  Mikey.

[williamlayton]

Let me first say--Imano!
That said--What I read is this:
The 9x23 case is different that that of a .38 super OR a Largo case. It is designed to take rifle pressure loading that can produce significantly stronger internal pressures than can the latter.
The Winchester case typically was designed--in the 9x23 case--to handle this loading.
I got a STI Trojan in a Super .38 from Dawson Precision and had them punch it out too a 9x23 and it works great with some additional work on the ejector and springs.
I can shoot both in this configuration.
The boys that build these guns will typically tell you too be careful with the loading of the 9x23 in unsupported cases. Imano! BUT, I follow what the boys say.
Typically it is suggested to shoot .38 super in a 9x23 but not the other way around.
See Dane Burns on Burns Custom for a detail of his thoughts on this round, its history and case information.
Blessings

[Mikey]

williamlayton:  I don't own a 9x23 barrel, just a couple of 38 Super barrels.  None have been 'punched out' to accept any other cartridge and handle the 9x23 case just fine. 

It is true the 9x23 case from Winchester is built to stiffer specs than the older european cases - none of the pistol cartridges of the 9mm Largo/Bergmann/Bayard era use pressures as high as the Winchester case but the 9x23 is nothing more than a long 9mm case, which has a thicker web than the 38 Super, and no rim.  The 9x23 was never designed as a rifle case or to handle rifle pressures, it was designed to handle semi-auto pistol pressures in the 36k psi range, which is what hot 9mms and 38 Supers produce. 

The statement about unsupported cases is a bit bothersome and the advice 'from the boys' is a bit off.  They tell ya to be careful of shooting the 9x23 in unsupported cases (unsupported barrels without integral ramps) but say it's ok to use the 38 Super (thinner brass and a larger unsupported area. 

Before the 9x23 Winchester came out many of us were taking 9mm magnum brass, running it up through a 38 Super trim die (hacking it off to the correct length) and using that for 38 Super brass - and having fun, too.  Mikey.

[moxgrove]

That's why I asked the question. WilliamLayton is definitely of the Burns school. And I just wanted to be educated all around about it. I used to load for the Super way back in the 80's in a Llama 1911 . It was frustrating trying to duplicate Rob Leatham loads whthout it blowing about one in 15 cases. It sounds like the 9x23 fixes the problem. Thanks for the input guys. I also saw that small rifle primers are recommnded as the primer is the weak link. Is this true?

[Mikey]

I can't agree with the use of rifle primers in pistol cartridges.  The rifle primer much more powerful than the pistol primer and ignites much more rapidly which could cause powder burning consistency problems.  The rifle primer is powerful enough to send a bullet out of the case and into the barrel before the pistol powder begins a proper burn, and that creates pressure problems. 

In either the 38 Super or the 9x23 Winchester you should use a fairly fast burning pistol powder although I have use H110 under 115 gn hps before and had them smokin'....., so to speak.  Winchester makes a very good small pistol primer for either standard or magnum loads and that is my preference.  HTH.

ps - doancha just love those big ol Llamas............. Mikey.
 

[moxgrove]

Thanks Mikey. Yeah I miss that pistol. I traded it staight up for a 44 mag Redhawk.

[williamlayton]

Mikey
I trust you and have a great deal of respect for you.
My comments were made on the basis of what Dane's comment were/are on this caliber.
I know several people who shoot 9x23 out of a .38 super and they seem too be successful.
I would be less than cautious, however; if I were too say this. Because of the words of one who seems too take this more seriously than they do, I would be less than conscientious too pass on my thoughts without the expertise he and others have.
You folks do it your way.
I do reload based on Dane's advice without hiccup--I do shoot the .38 super out of my STI.
The Winchester case seems too work well.
I may be overcautious but, since I don't have the expertise many here have, I need too be.
Blessings