Am I missing something??

[diggdug]

I here many people on these forums talk about the stopping power of the 45ACP. However, there are many other pistol cartridges that out perform it in terms of both velocity and muzzle energy. Muzzle energy in foot lbs is what I have always been told provides knock down power. So that being said, isn't a .357 Sig or .40 S&W better than the 45 acp for personal defense??

[Graybeard]

I'm of the opinion that muzzle energy or as I call it paper energy has no real meaning in anything. Many if not most magazine writers seem to be slowly coming around to admitting this as well but since they have nothing else to quantify how a round performs they continue to use it knowing full well it is meaningless.

However I do share your feelings in regard the .45acp. I'm not a fan and consider the .357 magnum, .357 Sig and especially the .40 S&W to be superior to it. I don't own one and have no plans to ever again own one.

[Timmer]

another thought on this problem. Consider the volume of liquid exiting a .357 hole vs a .45 hole. Personally I don't think this problem can be confined to one category. Velocity, power, point of impact, and depth of impact and spillage(leakage) all have their effect on this subject. I tend to gravitate toward the idea of the bigger the hole the faster the incapacity of the object receiving the blow regardless of the velocity and/or power. (old archery hunter making 2"+ holes compared to .357 and .45).

[PA-Joe]

Another factor is the ability to get back onto the target after taking a shot. Many people can tolerate the 45 acp but not the other options.

[williamlayton]

I own most of the weapons talked of here plus some.
If it is about penetration the is no doubt about the .40/357sig/.357.
If it is about impact then it is .10mm or .45---that is the stopping power talked of.
Even in some of the climates where heavy clothing is appropriate this time of the year the .10 or the .45 will accommodate more impact power than the others. Now, I wouldn't feel less protected with the others.
It is all in the desired effect/affect.
Blessings

[canon6]

I love these discussions ie; 45 best, anything else not so much.I
have 45's ,9mm.38.357,32,22 so I am not a one cartridge kind of guy.
One of the few visuals of the "knock down power" of a cartridge , was the attempted assination
of Ronald Reagan.The gunman used a 22lr put one inthe President one in Brady,one in a DC
 cop and one in a Secret Service agent,the SS agent was hit in the pelvis and screwed into the
 ground like a cork screw.
Does that ,mean the 22 is a man stopper NO, but.   my2c   Doug

[Jerry J]

When one talks about velocity, bullet weight and bullet diameter we overlook a crucial element and that is bullet placement. If you can shoot a bigger round and hit with a bigger round by all means carry it. If you can not then go with a round you can hit well with. Load it with premium ammo and have confidence that it will do the job intended. If you have no confidence in what you carry, to a certain degree it doesn't matter what the caliber.    Jerry J

[Savage]

Jerry,
You might want to consider the percentage of misses in gun battles as what you can expect as far as bullet placement goes. The last numbers I saw gave about a 30% hit ratio. That's just hits, not well placed hits.  I think that is charitable. In timed shooting events, even the presence of a timer is pressure enough to degrade skills. Now imagine the targets shooting back, and throwing in a little movement. So much for precise bullet placement !!
Savage
By the way, I agree that caliber size doesn't make up for lack of skill.

[Jerry J]

Savage,
Granted, using your figure of only 30% hits, wouldn't you want give yourself every edge you could. If I go into a fight believing I'm only going to get a 30% chance I've lost before I started. No I believe I'm going to be 100% of that 30. Mind set matters, tactics matter, good hits matter. Am I missing something.    Jerry J

[mcwoodduck]

Jerry and Savage,
    You both make the argument for toting a 9mm.  if my 45 holds 9 that means almost 3 hits.  My .40 holds 12 and that adds an extra hit per mag.  My 9 holds 16 that gives me a solid 5 hits.
    If you are not shooting a steel shoot or an IDPA shoot you have not idea what stress does to your skills.  Our club started up a tactical shoot last year and the guys that could shoot well at the bullseye shoot and at 50 feet were cutting small groups were having problems hitting a 10" steel plate at 15 feet.
   

[rockbilly]

Look back to the trench warfare that took place during WW! and WW II.  The .38 and 9mm did not have the power to stop a man, therefore the Army adapted the .45.  There are many stories of the .45s performance in this environment, why would it not continue to be one of the better stopping cartridges?

Even so, I do agree that the .357, .357 Sig, and .40 are also very potent choices too.  The big issue is, how many of whatever I am shooting can I keep on target?

[Castaway]

No doubt, bullet placement is the key.  A well placed 22 rim fire beats anything not placed properly.  Of the cartridges mentioned all have the capability to exit the target.  Given that, the wound channel size is the critical factor.  A hole starting at 0.452" and exiting at whatever it expanded to is better than any of the above referenced options, given the same bullet in each caliber mentioned.  As the old timers said, it lets a lot of blood out and a lot of air in.

[StrawHat]

There are many stories of the .45s performance in this environment,

There are also many stories from the Philippines forward of the 45 not performing on demand.

Yes, shot placement helps, but you need something that is going to carry a wallop. 

What do I carry?  A S&W 45 ACP revolver, of course.  I just plan on shooting a lot!

[mcwoodduck]

Rockbilly,
You need a history lesson.
We had the 1911 loaded with the 45 in both world wars.  Some troops were issued 38's by Smith (liberty guns) that the Brits did not take.  All four rounds worked well (9mm, 38/200[Brit version of 38S&W loaded with a 200 grain bullet], 38 spl, and 45 acp),  Heck the Italians had 380 ACP as their hand gun round.  What your thinking of is the Morros in the Philippine islands.  They would wrap themselves real tight with cloth to stop blood loss if they were hit and would take drugs.  The 38 colt long with a small bullet ( the war department was trying to save $ by using less materials) was not effective on the drugged and bound up insurrection fighters.  Some troopers still had the old Colt SAA in 45 and found that the big slug was effective in putting down the charging forces and that's when John M Browning designed the 1911 to meet the new specs.  Now lets jump a head to the present.  Ball 45, 40, and 9mm all have about the same one shot stop rating.  Mid to low 60% range according to the book street stoppers.  The guy who wrote it looked at all gun shots where a bullet type was used in a shooting and where a torso hit was made and did the math as to how effective a particular round was in the field.  By the way the little 32 Acp with silver tips was just as effective as ball 9 or 45.
Add in the new technology of controlled expanding bullets and all of the self protection calibers (9mm, 38 Spl, 357 Sig, 357 Mag, 40, 10mm, and 45) are really all the same.  Ford, Dodge, and Chevy.  A pick up is a pick up.  But some like the different features of each brand.