Author Topic: Whats the deal with Trespassing? (Read 5713 times)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #90 on:** October 25, 2007, 07:26:20 AM »

then Jesus came and taught forgiveness ! And check out the passage about seeing the intent of of someone , if a man comes in the night and you kill him it is different if he comes in the day when you can see if he means to hurt you or night and he he does not intend to hurt you , you should not kill him !

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #91 on:** October 25, 2007, 07:37:30 AM »

Of course if you don't believe in the coming of Jesus you may not have studied the Bible with his message of forgiveness !
in mind !

williamlayton · « **Reply #92 on:** October 25, 2007, 11:18:55 PM »

Shootall
Much of what you say is true and I understand.
A thief would be forgiven if he ask. If he is in the midst of thievery and repents I would forgive.
If I catch him stealing from me and he runs you are suggesting I forgive him and let him run.
Good.
Now he runs too your house and is caught in the midst of stealing and in his hurry and haste to escape he injures you or yours--maybe kills.
You say what are the odds of that happening?
I say the odds are far greater than you realize.
Now are you going to forgive me?
When are you folks going to realize that no man is an island and that we are in this together and we better stick together.
You do it your way.
Blessings

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #93 on:** October 26, 2007, 01:53:07 AM »

DON'T WORRY ! If he shows up at my house and threatens my life i can deal with it !
But keep in mind only God has the right to judge !

Old Syko · « **Reply #94 on:** October 26, 2007, 03:06:09 AM »

Quote

But keep in mind only God has the right to judge !

Anyone who threatens the life of another or threatens the well-being of another by way of theft deserves to have that meeting expedited. "Thou shalt not............" Remember?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #95 on:** October 26, 2007, 04:14:03 AM »

YEP ! ya threaten life the gloves come off but a kid stealing get real !

Old Syko · « **Reply #96 on:** October 26, 2007, 07:54:43 AM »

Get real indeed! This is as real as it gets. So far I'm seeing no reasonable options offered. Let's face it. Law enforcement is not an option as they are reactionary only. Protect and serve? Forget the protect part at least as they won't be there when you are getting robbed. If someone does accidentally get caught they are routed through a "legal" system not a justice system as some would have you believe. They will be home in most cases before you are. We now have correctional institutions rather than jails that are nothing more than training camps for criminals to learn how to more successfully ply their trade. If a criminal young or old, knows his choice of action will possibly be his last he will probably make a different choice.

My nephew who lived down the road a couple miles just sold his place and moved out yesterday because he has been robbed 3 times in 2 months. The first time they took his whole gun safe. Common sense dictates that during any subsequent robberies they were and will be well armed and have no understanding of respect. Rather than stand up to these slugs nephew has chosen to tuck tail and run. We have come to believe it is a group of kids that are doing it because they were never taught any better and they quickly discovered there is no penalty. I've spoken to the new owner and believe me, he won't be running nor will I. Anyone who is willing to steal is willing to do much worse and must be treated as such.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #97 on:** October 26, 2007, 08:17:19 AM »

The key word you used is confront !
I get the idea that some want to shoot a kid in the back for a minor theft and that is plain wrong !

jimster · « **Reply #98 on:** October 26, 2007, 12:20:14 PM »

Severe punishment does seem to deter some. Way back when, they hung horse thieves. Didn't matter how old they were either. Guess what, there were not many horse thieves.
I ain't one for shooting anyone in the back, I doubt most people would knowingly shoot a 15 year old kid and his pal in the back while they were taking your tires off, but what they do after they get caught could be another story, every situation is different and if you startle a family in the middle of the night from a dead sleep doing something you ain't supposed to do, all bets are off on what takes place. There was a deal here a while back where some young guy went to a families home in the early morning beating on the Windows and scaring the daylights out of the whole family. The man of the family actually went out the front door on the porch, the young drunk lunged at him and it was over. The man of the family was armed. Even though the guy left his home, even though the young man was drunk and not armed...they ruled it a justified shooting because the whole family was scared to death, and thought there lives were in grave danger.
Might have been all different if that same thing happened at 12:00 noon. Bottom line is, if you want to live, don't disturb other people's property, the quicker they learn that, the less we'll all see of people steeling your stuff, or worse.

30-06man · « **Reply #99 on:** October 26, 2007, 04:32:32 PM »

i had a problem with some people coming from the bad part of the neighboring town. they came and decided to steal a kubota tractor i saw them out messing with it tring to start it. i had my old pump shotgun out because i was squirrel huntin so they were out there messing with it so i knew i was going to scare the crap out of them and keep them untill i could get the law there pumped the shotgun and both hit the groud tring to craw away then i put one in the chamber put it on safty and pointed it away till the law got there. turns out they already had charges and i was thanked for catching them. they tore some wires out and managed to turn on the lights of the tractor but thats all the damage done. fact if try to scare then get them on the ground hold them untill you get the law. if they shoot or pose any threat defend your self and try to contain them if at anyway possible.

Mikey · « **Reply #100 on:** October 27, 2007, 01:14:44 AM »

We had a situation in my town where a burglar had busted into a store that had been hit twice in the past couple of weeks. The owner and his son confronted the man (21 and with a record) and the man tried to flee. Unfortunately, the door he tried to flee through was locked and barred and he had no choice but to surrender to the shotgun armed son. He chose not to by picking up a rather large pipe wrench, raising over his head as if to strike and advanced toward the store owner and his son until he got shot. Then he drops the wrench and staggers out the door and is found by the police sitting against the front of the store bleeding on the sidewalk.

That was two weeks ago and the cops are still trying to sort it out but to most of us it is rather plain. The store owner and his son later repaired the damage the burglar caused, repaired the damage caused by the gunshot and re-opened the store. The cops are still trying to figure it out and are still trying to determine whether to bring some sort of charges against the store owner for defending himself.

As was previously said, police forces are strictly reactionary. They may actually prevent a robbery somewhere (a donut shop) if they are there when it happens but in this state they don't usually prevent anything.

Although this started out as just a robbery it turned violent. When this happens you must (read: MUST) defend yourself or be injured or killed and if you are willing to roll over for a criminal and suffer for it due to some some sort of biblical guidance that is your business. But if your business results in someone innocent being harmed you can't turn around and quote the bible as a defense for not doing anything to stop it. That is just crapping out on your responsibilities.

You have responsibilities as a gun owner and if you don't want to face up to those responsibilities then get rid of your guns and hope nobody ever hurts you.

To try and make the determination, during the commission of a crime, that it is a non-violent situation, is pure ignorance of the criminal mind and pure foolishness. A criminal who chooses to commit a crime doesn't care if he has to throw a little violence around - your problem is that as you get older, the ratio of the amount of violence you are subject to and the damage it causes is exponentially higher at your end and your suffering is greater. If it is just you that is soley your business but if some one other, an innocent, is involved if you don't put a stop to it then you are just as responsible for that innocent person's injuries.

And that's what the deal with trespassing is. If it is just trespassing that is one thing but if it is a trespass with an intent it is something else and either you take action or suffer the consequences. And thats JMTCW. Mikey.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #101 on:** October 28, 2007, 08:11:19 AM »

like the rational have been saying , theft is no reason to kill !
If the trespasser threatens you or attacks yes by all means defend yourself .
I'll leave this with you , at 2 AM you hear someone trying to get in your house . You are not in danger YET , you yell for them to stop . They don't so you shoot and kill an Alzheimer's patient that wandered out of the home he was staying at a few blocks away !
Do you feel good ? is your home safer ?
do you have a real good lawyer ?

Old Syko · « **Reply #102 on:** October 28, 2007, 11:53:58 AM »

Your alzheimer patient isn't confronting anyone or stealing so therefore serves no purpose in this discussion. The "rational" of us can tell the difference. No one here is talking about random shootings for sport. The discussion is about protecting what is ours and seeing to our own well being.

rockbilly · « **Reply #103 on:** October 28, 2007, 03:50:01 PM »

Shootall. A little food for thought.

Luke 11:21, Jesus said "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe."

Luke 22:36, Jesus says " He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

Exodus 22:2, says "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;..."

Ecclesiastes 4:12, says "Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken."

Zechariah 9:8, says "But I will defend my house against marauding forces. Never again will an oppressor overrun my people, for now I am keeping watch."

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #104 on:** October 29, 2007, 01:20:58 AM »

OLD SYKO , HE is trespassing and trying to break in ! Some seem to think thats reason to kill a man !
ROCKBILLY , I believe in each verse you offer it gives us the right to confront and if the thief stops then we have no right to murder him ! JMHO !

rockbilly · « **Reply #105 on:** October 29, 2007, 06:48:12 AM »

Shootall. That has been the point of most post since day one. If you go back and read my post, and most of the others, no one advocates shooting without just cause. I have personally been in several situations over the years where I "might" have been justified in shooting, but choose no to and handled the situation in another manner, I think most people of prudent judgment would do the same, but today, at my age, I would not attempt to fight with an individual, so if it ever gets to that point, well I can't say what will happen.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #106 on:** October 29, 2007, 08:12:53 AM »

i guess we read different ! it seems some would kill a petty thief for the sake of killing him !
the solider that caught Saddam H. has to be the example of constraint in these matters , he had him dead to rights SH had a gun , yet he took him prisoner ! he is a great human and great solider !. he allowed the rule of law to work !

jimster · « **Reply #107 on:** October 29, 2007, 11:34:22 AM »

Well it really still all boils down to the situation in each case. Possibly even what the criminal is stealing. If I catch someone in my house, and he happens to be stealing one of my guns somehow, I can't just let him go, or he could hurt someone else with one of my weapons...I'll have to kill him if he tries to run a way with that. In this State, I do have the right to stop a felony, and I'd better make sure whatever it is he's stealing is not a weapon that he can use later. Now if it's a kid talking my tools and running away, I'll let him go and report it if I can't catch him, although I should be able to catch him if he's got the entire tool box, it's heavy! LOL!
All depends what's going on. More than likely if I hear noises in the house I'll secure my perimeter, call the cops...and anyone walks through the door of the room where I have secured the perimeter where my wife and I are, they will die. I have all in my favor if I secure my perimeter, if I go looking for a noise and start clearing rooms, I am taking some what of a chance there. It still
all depends on the situation though. Most times maybe when you catch a youngster they might be scared, but you still better be ready, cause there are some young people who are turning into hardened criminals at an early age. So I guess you best use some judgment when you catch someone, and you don't have a a long time to think about it. Of course there is always a possibility that whoever is stealing, might well be armed too...in that case, there is no way he is shooting first, it just takes one lucky shot to put me down. He would have almost Zero seconds to put it down and get down, any length of time that goes by before he puts it down is putting me or someone else in grave danger, and I will assume any thief that I notice is armed and in my house is intending to great bodily harm. Like I said earlier, you don't know what they will do when caught red handed, it might just be up to them how that goes. Seems lots of people are getting shot around here lately, mostly criminals. Last one was a guy broke into someones place of business, little did he know the guy that owned the business lived in that same building. The owner confronted him, the bad guy made a bad move, he moved toward the owner, and he is dead now, no charges pressed against the owner. That's the way it's been going lately in this part of Michigan. The self defense laws are pretty strong here now, a simple lunge or move toward someone during a situation like that is reason enough if it's late, dark, and things are tense.
Not long ago, a good guy chased two bad guys, and shot one in the backside, this bad guy happened to have a gun in his pocket. They got them both, one went to the hospital, the other to jail, no charges pressed against the guy that chased them, and it was not even the guys house where the kids where breaking in...it was a neighbors house, he was just watching out for the neighbor. He was also stopping a felony in progress...legal here.

rockbilly · « **Reply #108 on:** October 29, 2007, 12:11:22 PM »

When to shoot? That is definitely a heavy decision for the average man to make. There are some mean, and very vicious kids running the streets today, just last Friday two sixteen year old boys beat a homeless man unconscious in an alley behind our Church Mission where we fed, clothed and housed homeless people. The man had done nothing to them, they just beat him for "the fun of it," the man was admitted to the hospital and never regained consciousness, he died this morning.

The point is, kids today are like rattlesnakes, they can, and will kill you starting at a very early age. You never know how to react to a situation involving kids, some may be half decent, and respond accordingly, others may be like these two thugs and kill you just for kicks. For this reason, I say no one should never say "I won't shoot a kid."

30-06man · « **Reply #109 on:** October 29, 2007, 02:25:14 PM »

if its a a kid like 14yr old range and has no weapon i won't shoot him. if he has one of my guns and its not loaded i won't shoot him. i know i could catch one. but if hes posing a threat ill shoot. me and my son and my brother who lives next door have practiced this a little since there has been a bunch of armed robberies lately. what we normally do is ill grab the first gun i can and try to find the threat. my son does the same but heads to my daughters room and gets her to their mom, then he calls threat and the police and if anything happens he will shoot and dave will be outside waiting on who ever it is if some one is shot and injured. it probably won't work this way but at least its practice. and as far as teens beating homeless homeless i don't like and call the law and attempt to help at anyway possible

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #110 on:** October 31, 2007, 01:17:40 AM »

rockbilly , guess we agree we just state it different ways !
my home has been invaded 2 times when i was home , both times the invaders were met with a colt 1911 and both times they retreated !

FourBee · « **Reply #111 on:** October 31, 2007, 05:28:44 PM »

SHOOTALL:
In some countries the majority of the people believe a thief should be killed. I heard a man tell of entering a village one day, and the people were forming a large crowd in the main street. They had caught a thief, dragged him to the town square, the home owners told of what happened, and the crowd beat him to death.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #112 on:** November 01, 2007, 09:08:03 AM »

yep ! and others don't ! so whats your point ?
each location on earth has its own laws ( which is fine by me ) just make sure you obey them !
then to abortion is legal here ( USA ) and many still believe it is wrong ! and refuse to go along !

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #113 on:** November 01, 2007, 09:12:09 AM »

let me add that we give up some freedom to live in a society and agree to abide by the laws of that society . if we don't then it begins to fail !
now if we find ourselves in a situation where we must defend ourselves the society has failed us and we are allowed to defend our self . But not to judge and kill for any other reason !

rockbilly · « **Reply #114 on:** November 01, 2007, 05:08:36 PM »

Statics indicate that we can not depend on protection from the system 100% of the time, based on what I have seen, I think we can not depend on protection period. You may get an officer to investigate AFTER a crime has been committed, but rarely do you get one to prevent the crime. For this reason, you have to be prepared to protect yourself 100% of the time.

This was not the way many of us grew up, I well remember going to bed at night and never locking a door, leaving the keys in the vehicles, and not worrying about a theft or robbery. My, have times changed.

williamlayton · « **Reply #115 on:** November 01, 2007, 10:27:49 PM »

Let me respond.
I would not hesitate too shoot based on a person putting me in a situation where I had to determine if he/she could cause my family or me harm.
If someone would be in a position to cause me harm and/or steal from me then they have put me in a position of making a decision--which will effect/affect them. That is their problem--they are not invited guest.
I am much too old to discuss/dialog this issue with them.
Why would I jeopardize my safety because they want anything I own??
You can argue scripture, political correctness but all the while there is the opportunity for this criminal too do do something that is a clear violation of law.
I am too old and slow to run and fight---and i will be darned if I will let them just walk away with my property.
Blessings