Blued carbon steel versus stainless, soft or brittle?

[His lordship.]

Back around 1981? Ruger came out with a .357 mag. revolver I think was the security six in stainless steel, there were a few cracked forcing cones reported, but my friend bought one and never had a problem.  I also heard of galling on the reciever to bolt contact (excessive wear) with the early Mini 14's in stainless  Colt avoided stainless steel at that time, saying that it was not good material.  Yet, Smith and Wesson got into stainless steel aggressively.  A company called AMT had galling problems with their Hardballer .45 auto in stainless steel.  So, I felt early on that blued carbon steel was better and only had stainless for concealed carry revolvers where they would be exposed to humidity, etc.

A few years ago (late 1990's) I was working on my sister's Taurus .357 magum revolver, and had trouble getting the side plate off with the usual and correct, tap-with-a-rubber-mallet procedure.  I tried using a screwdriver to pry off the plate just a hair, hoping to rubber mallet the rest of the way, and was shocked at how soft the steel was, I mean the screw driver dug into the frame almost like it was butter. :shock: I had to try to hide the indent, I used a mild abrasive tool to try to smooth it out, and was hoping my sister did not see the problem.

I also have to sharpen my stainless steel kitchen knives a heck of alot more than the carbon steel knives, but at least you can put them into the dishwasher!

I have also heard that blued carbon steel is smoother than stainless, less gritty in feel with a bolt rifle or revolver's action.  Now that it is 2003 and metalurgy has been known to improve over the years.  Is stainless steel in guns more soft or brittle than blued carbon steel?
 :?
Thanks

[His lordship.]

I forgot to mention that my sister's Taurus .357 magnum is/was stainless steel in talking about how soft it seems, yet it shoots nice in the above article on the metalurgy question.

[KN]

I have done a fair amount of machining to gun parts over the years and in my oppinion most stainless steels used in guns are easier to machine than their blue steel counterparts. Is it softer? Probably so, but with todays metalurgy stainless steels have just as good wear caracteristics as blue steel. But you are right, stainless steels can be a little softer and easier to bugger up than blue carbon steel. Especialy when it comes to screw heads and side plates and such.   KN

[gunnut69]

The problems with galling were solved by using slightly different stainless alloys. Stainless is less stainless as the carbon is added. So while most gun and knife steels(stainless) atr fairly soft they can be quite tough (AUS-8A) but then want to rust a bit easier. Also while stainless may be a bit soft it is incredibly tough. This is one of the reasons stainless weapons cost a bit more. In making them the cutters must be turning faster, moving across the work a bit slower and changed more often. If you really want to get into a metalurgical mess look at some of the newest alloys, scandium, magnesium, etc. They require completely different manufacturing techniques. Some actually get softer were they are worked....

[rb in ar]

Stainless like any other newer product was less understood than higher carbon steels when it was being introduced into new products. Some problems were encountered and as might be expected some people developed certain ideas about stainless. Most of those ideas are sheer myths. Stainless does not necessarily dull quicker than carbon in fact it actually may (and usually does) outlast carbon if the alloy is correct for the blade edge. Stainless in not softer (or harder for that matter) than carbon as it depends on the alloy and construction factors as to how hard it is. Stainless might gall but not likely if mated correctly.

Stainless is a wide variety of alloys that fit a wide variety of uses. Carbon steel has and will work for a likewise wide variety of applications and some prefer it as a matter of taste as in blued steel. But as far as rating carbon and stainless, stainless has become the choice for both better function and wear. Move on into the 21st century and accept stainless as the state of the art in steel. If you buy a stainless knife of good quality Spyderco will sell you a sharpener that will keep it as sharp (or sharper) for as long (or longer) than any carbon model.

[gunnut69]

RBinar is right about one thing for sure. the line between carbon and stainless alloys is certainly blurring. If enough carbon is added to allow the steel to properly harden for use as a blade it becomes less resistant to rusting. Also many knife steels(stainless alloys) need special tempering procedures to reach their full potential, but once there they are excellant for use as knives. When first used as a material for knife blades the prime requirement was no rust. The steel contained little carbon, much like a good kitchen sink and they held an edge poorly. Modern alloys are certainly better at holding an edge, but steels like AUS-8A which an excellant knife steel will rust as will your Ruger pistol. Most stainless alloys are more difficult to machine and is the main reason for the price differences. The slightly higher cost of the steel itself is the other main difference in costing out a product. Material costs are almost always overshadowed by labor costs whether that be man or machine time. Stainbless has properties that make it an excellant choice for weapons. It also has some drawbacks. All firearms quality has taken a dive in past few years, with some much worse than others, but as a whole I believe the stainless weapons have suffered more than the carbon steel. Some of the exotic alloys and amterials such as titanium have also suffered. As to moving into the 21st century, I would just note that the most common 'deer' rifle in the world was designed in the 19th century and calibers even older are still in common use. Stainless and synthetic may be the wave of the future, I don't know, but I will always prefer blued steel and walnut. Still I will be the first to admit, it's just my preference. We each still have that right, at least for the moment..

[rb in ar]

The moderator speaks the truth when he says older designs are not bad because they are older. I have a pre 64 model 70 Winchester and I'm certainly not going to trade it for anything made since even if it had no collector's value. I also prefer blued guns with wood stocks but not for function but because I don't want anything shiny in the woods and I think they look better. In fact my favorite rifle for hunting loads from the muzzle, has a side lock, and was designed in the 18th century.

I don't mind if stainless is maligned for use in knifes or guns. But that dislike should be based on facts and personal taste not on myths (like blued steel is smoother than stainless... POLISH IT IF YOU WANT IT SMOOTH) that stainless is somehow that much different than any other steel.

[Power]

I don't mind if stainless is maligned for use in knifes or guns. But that dislike should be based on facts and personal taste not on myths (like blued steel is smoother than stainless... POLISH IT IF YOU WANT IT SMOOTH) that stainless is somehow that much different than any other steel.

One more reason I like my stainless Tikka rifle, the barrel has some sort of acid-etching on it to cut glare as it has a rough finish to it. However, like rb, I prefer not to take any chances on bright/shiny items when hunting. To that end, why don't companies make a stainless gun with a blued barrel? Seems you should be able to blue it just like a normal weapon. Has anyone tried it? Maybe they could offer a kit to die it dark green or some other colors?

[rb in ar]

Power: The reason you don't see many stainless guns blued is most people (and companies also) think it is difficult or impossible to get stainless to blue with a good looking finish. Also the price would be higher. I have not worked with any styles of finish for stainless so I cannot say if it's precieved hardness to blue is fact or fiction. I can say there are other ways to finish stainless besides bluing.

HCR finished a fine model 70 in 300 WSM just a while back it came with a black teflon finish. To quote my grandpa "it's slicker than hog snot". Really is a fine finish.

[Power]

Thanks again RB. That is what I was thinking, a Teflon or similar finish in either black or even some subtle camo colors (Kahki green/brown). Maybe a nice sand color. Just something so it's not bright silver. I appreciate people's perceptions of seeing the stainless and such but as long as I know I'd rather have a different color.

[gunnut69]

My nephew is a powder coating prof. He does a verdigris finish which is black with dark green highlights. I have an old M721 Remington, rebarreled with a Douglas chromoly barrel and converted to a detachable box magazine. It's going into a laminated stock(green-black-brown). I will lighten the stock and scope with matte finish mounts and scope. Hope I get the time to work on some of my own stuff!!  Of course I don't pay myself to well! I'll try for some pictures when it's assembled..  By the way the powder comes in several multi-color colors. That is one application will bleed into a multi-colored finish..  they are called 'hammer tone' colors.

[Power]

That sounds like what I was thinking, a nice powder coat finish. Maybe leave the action stainless for looks and just have the barrel done in a nice dark blue/green/black.

Gunnut, if your nephew is offering his services give me a holler. I'm sure it'd be worth a case or two and I'm not talking about shells

[gunnut69]

He's not a gunsmith but does do powder coating jobs for me. He's not equipted to tear down the weapons and really doesn't want the bother. I'm sure if you can take them down a local powder coat company can coat them for you. If you can't find anyone locally give me a PM and we'll see what we can work out. It's not as expensive as a rust blue but not cheap either. It's the protection that really make it work, and the ease at coloring/hiding the stainless guns and those with minor pitting. I'll post some photoes when I get my 270 together.