Author Topic: 25-06 Factory Ammo (Read 2705 times)

James8003 · « **on:** October 18, 2007, 03:59:49 AM »

Hello all.
Been a silent reader out here for many, many moons now and have found everything I was looking for and questions answered without having to post...until now.
I've recently aquired a Browning BBR 25-06, 24" barrel and a 4.5x14 mil-dot Swift scope. I purchased said rifle mainly for varmit hunting, but there are 2 areas I hunt where if presented, I can tap a deer in the 200 to 300 yard range. (Yes, I do trust myself with that kind of shot, but not with my Win. 94 30-30 or my 1100 w/slug barrel), Hence why I picked up this Browning.
Herein lies the problem...(now I do not reload and can't foresee it happening anytime soon, so I only use factory loads in all my weapons)
I've tried 3 different loads from 2 manufacturers with similiar results...100 yards, it's a nail driver with each load. Most accurate 100 yard rifle I've ever owned. Stretch it out to 200 yards (where I would like to zero) and the POI is all over the target with anywhere from 3 1/2" to 6" groupings. No good at all IMO. (There were 3 of us shooting this last day out, all accomplished hunters in our time, so please don't say I need more practice or have no business shooting this distance). Wind was minimal.
Factory ammo tried so far has been Fedreal V Shok 85 Nosler Ballistic Tip, Federal Power Shok 117 Speer Hot-Cor SP and the Remington Core Lokt 120 PSP.
The Remmy actually showed the best results, while both of the Federals were horendous. I ordered a some Rem 100 gr. Core Lokt and Win. Supreme Ballistic Silver Tips in 85 and 115 yesterday, but unfortunately won't see them until Tuesday next. (Sadly, the local gun shops don't have much call to keep alot of 25-06 stock). However, I did pick up a box of 120 Fusion, also made by Federal?
As you all know, the 25-06 is a flat shooter and I was hoping to find 2 good grouping rounds, (one for Groundhogs, 'Yotes and one for Wolves and Deer). Now I'm at a loss and just want to find one consistant round to group at 1 1/2"-2" at 200 yds. Are these expectations too high? Is that not possbible with factory loads? If it's not, then OK, I 've now got something I do not want. With all the experienced knowledge out here, is there a factory load you fellas can recommend?

OR...could there be a problem with the barrel? If the previous owner, (which I don't personally know) had burn't the barrel, would there be tell tale signs? Visually, everything looks just great and well cared for. If the barrel was smoked, would it not have a terrible 100 yrd POI as well?
Any and all help appreciated!

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2007, 04:31:04 AM »

If the rifle is tearing a ragged hole at 100yds and is shooting all over the place at 200, you may have a scope problem and not a rifle problem. If you have another scope try that first. There may have been a little breeze between you and the farther target that you weren't able to pick up. Some flags every 10-20 yards will help ya cach this.
When you started shooting at 200,had you cleaned the rifle? Was the barreled heated from prior shooting?

HWD

jasonprox700 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 18, 2007, 04:56:03 AM »

I was having a problem similiar to that, but only at a much short range. I ended up replacing my Tasco World Class (3x9x50) with a Nikon, and my groups tightened up where they had been when the scope was good. A friend of mine also experienced the same thing with his .300 Mag. He had the same scope as me, and his did the same thing. He replaced it with a Nikon also, and hasn't had a problem since.

James8003 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 18, 2007, 06:45:03 PM »

Thx for the replies.
No, we were quite careful and consistant with letting the barrel cool between 3 round sets. All holes at 100 and 200 were nice and clean. And yes, flags were set out at 50 yard intervals. Last time out wind was next to nil.
I thought about the scope, but figured it dialed in so nicely at 100 that it wouldn't be the problem. I do have kind of an inexpensive Bushnell 3X9 I could throw on just to see what happens. I also have a nice BSA 4X I could try too.
I shall give the barrel a good scub as well.
On a side note, the scope power was left alone (8X) throughout all the rounds fired just to eliminate POI questions with power changes.
Opinion wise, you think the ammo is not the problem here then?

Lone Star · « **Reply #4 on:** October 19, 2007, 03:50:45 AM »

Given the wide variety of brands and bullet weights you tried, I cannot see this being an ammunition problem. While not always the case, group size is usually proprotional to range. I would suggest that you go back to 100 yards and repeat the tests to see if the groups are still small. You could have had a scope/mount failure between the 100 and 200 yard shooting.

.

James8003 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2007, 04:03:59 AM »

Thx LoneStar. I was just talking with gun shop owner who sold me the rifle and he suggested the same concerning the scope. It's not unheard of, (at least in these parts) for someone to exchange their better scope for one their not happy with before trading a rifle/scope combo in.
Anyway, hopefully the scope is THE cure. I've always thought of the Swift scopes as a quality product, anyone have warranty issues with the company?

Don Fischer · « **Reply #6 on:** October 19, 2007, 05:47:59 PM »

While you may well have had a scope failure between shooting at 100 and 200 yds I doubt it. What were you using for a rest? There's something missing here.

James8003 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 20, 2007, 02:33:17 AM »

Quote from: Don Fischer on October 19, 2007, 05:47:59 PM

While you may well have had a scope failure between shooting at 100 and 200 yds I doubt it. What were you using for a rest? There's something missing here.

My feelings exactly Mr. Fischer! I've lost much sleep over this...Could it be the rifle is just a lemon?? Hard to believe with it being so very accurate at 100.
We're shooting from a very sturdy (although homemade) fixed bench system. We've been using it for years now. 7? maybe 8 other weapons were dialed in this day the 25-06 was showing it's nature, so again, I'm at a loss.
I'm making a big drive later this morn into the city to find some more ammo so's I can try some more shooting with it on Monday.
Like said...any and all help appreciated.
I meant to say it earlier, but GREAT site you all have here!

IRA51 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2007, 12:16:00 PM »

Why don't you try cleaning the rifle and than use some copper cleaner to remove all copper from it. and try again .

Semisane · « **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2007, 04:44:49 PM »

Hey James, I have a Browning B-78 25-06. It has a light octagon sporter barrel and will shoot 1" @ 100 yds, 2" @ 200 and 3" @ 300, but ONLY with 100 grain bullets. Groups double in size - or worse - with 115s, 117s, and 120s (haven't shot any 87s). Also, the barrel must be clean to maintain accuracy. I use a copper remover after every 20 to 25 shots.

James8003 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 23, 2007, 06:30:41 PM »

Thx to all of you for your replies.
However...I give up. I've scrubbed and cleaned the barrel beyond measure, exchanged scopes, tried dang near every shell and load around to no avail...still no luck at the 200 mark. I've heard of rifles doing this and now I own one. But not for much longer...
Thanx again for your replies!

backstrap · « **Reply #11 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:40:58 AM »

Maybe your cleaning your gun to much i just bought a Browning A-Bolt in 25-06 and it seems the more i shoot it the better its shooting this rifle i have sure likes a fowd barrel it took me some time to find the round it likes so if i were u i would keep trying i about gave up on mine and i also dont reload so it gets costly thats for sure mine finally piced the Winchester super X 120gr Positive expasion bullets it wouldnt shoot the 100gr 115gr very well at all i seen where u havent shot any 100gr bullets some of these rifle just take time i know a person wants them to shoot perfect the first time out but thats not always the case, and i have herd from some guys there rifle never did shoot so they got rid of it i am lucky i have never got a lemin for a rifle so i am very lucky all mine shoot well

James8003 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 25, 2007, 03:29:40 AM »

Semisane and backstrap...yes, I totally agree with you on the bullet front. I tried everything made available to me from 85, 90, 100, 115, 117 and 120's.
The thing absolutely loves every type at 100 yards! And if that's all I wanted this rifle for, well, I would be ecastic.
I did find the Rem Core Lokt PSP in a 120 to be the most consistant overall.
I appreciate your posts!

bhod1 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 08, 2007, 01:50:46 PM »

I know one thing that changes the group size in my rifle. The rest itself being too hard.
If I lay it over the homemade wood rests at the range it shoots like crap at 200, but putting a soft cushion underneath and the groups tighten up.

Barry

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #14 on:** November 15, 2007, 06:14:51 PM »

Check to see if your scope is square and level with the barrel. It could be dialed in at 100 yds., but then trigonometry and the point of convergence of your sighted cross hairs and the rifle barrel will change at the greater distanceif your crosshairs are not essentially level and square with the rifle. This will involve loosening the ring screws, readjusting the scope to level (I like to use Wheelers Level-Level-Level available via MidwayUSA) and then tighenting the ring screws without taking the rifle out of tolerance. A good gun vise is essential for this.

Doing this cleaned up my groups on two rifles, a 30-06 and a 7mm WSM that had been mounted out of square. Give it a try... its cheaper and easier than chasing an ammunition fix.

kudzu · « **Reply #15 on:** December 10, 2007, 11:17:40 AM »

SuperC, I know what you are talking about, however even if this were the problem wouldn't the rifle still group well , just either left or right. Just thinking out loud here but if the gun is ''spraying'' groups at 200 and not 100, I'm leaning toward "not crooked crosshairs''
I had one do this one time . I was sighted in at 300 with 11/4 groups. shot great groups at 100, just left. and at 500 shot right.

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #16 on:** December 11, 2007, 05:29:12 AM »

No it wouldn't. The point of convergence between the two imaginary lines of your rifle bore and your cross hairs will intersect at a greater, steeper angle before, after or at your sight in distance if your scope is not level, instead of running parallel to and past your sight-in distance. Past the intersection of the two lines is where you will find the most error. You want to eliminate as much of that error as possible.

FWIW, this is how I fixed my 30-06 that was giving me dime sized groups @ 100 yds but sprayed the target @ 200. It brought it back into MOA @ 200yds. The person who had originally set up the scope had slightly cocked the crosshairs to the left. All of this was after a thorough cleaning with JB Bore Compound, Barnes CR-10 and Shooters Choice, done to eliminate another variable.

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #17 on:** December 11, 2007, 05:38:21 AM »

No it wouldn't. The point of convergence between the two imaginary lines of your rifle bore and your cross hairs will intersect at a greater, steeper angle before, after or at your sight in distance if your scope is not level, instead of running parallel to and past your sight-in distance. Past the intersection of the two lines is where you will find the most error. You want to eliminate as much of that error as possible. Consider your shift from left of center to right of center at different yardage - I think your shooting technique/rifle control may have been giving a better rest than mine, but that the bases and/or rings were not exactly square or true allowing the scope to not be exactly parallel with the rifle. However, this demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about, because that is what happens, your results just weren't as dramatic as mine.

FWIW, this is how I fixed my 30-06 that was giving me dime sized groups @ 100 yds but sprayed the target @ 200. It brought it back into MOA @ 200yds. The person who had originally set up the scope had slightly cocked the crosshairs to the left. All of this was after a thorough cleaning with JB Bore Compound, Barnes CR-10 and Shooters Choice, done to eliminate another variable.

kudzu · « **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2007, 07:21:21 AM »

Goes to show that there is no concrete answer for anything. Sometimes the same problems have different solutions and different problems sometimes have similar solutions.

SuperC, after reading your signature footnote, I'll be quite.

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #19 on:** December 11, 2007, 09:30:14 AM »

Quote from: dancoman on December 11, 2007, 07:21:21 AM

Goes to show that there is no concrete answer for anything. Sometimes the same problems have different solutions and different problems sometimes have similar solutions.

SuperC, after reading your signature footnote, I'll be quite.

Yep! And don't you love my double post? How in the world did I do that???

tomzuki · « **Reply #20 on:** December 31, 2007, 06:57:40 AM »

Have you considered changing the power of the scope if its variable?? This would change the p.o.i., and the higher power magnification would make the cross jump more. Try a fixed power scope or stay with the same power of magnification, say 6x always. Just my thoughts and experience.

Cossack2 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 01, 2008, 02:41:39 PM »

Check the crown of the muzzle for dings.

charles p · « **Reply #22 on:** January 22, 2008, 10:14:53 AM »

I have an old BBR in 25-06 and mine carries a 4.5X14 VXIII. My rifle shoots 100s better than 120s, but both are OK. I've made some long shots on deer, but at the range I only sight in at 100yds. I mostly shoot reloads. I like the Sierra bullets. Nothing fancy.