45/410

[PHATINJUN]

I am trying to get a load worked up for a NEF45/410 on SB2 frame it is a 20" barrel. What I am trying to do is get closer to the rifling to improve accuracy. I have brass 410 cases and some 444 marlin brass and will probly be using 250-300 grain bullets in .451-.452 range should I use all lead or plated bullets ?what powders ? the 410 has large pistol primer pockets also what dies do you think would work best? thanks for any help with this project. Kurt

[stimpylu32]

Kurt

Do a Google search in GBO for  ( 450 MONGO ) there will be some info for you on this barrel and the things we have tried to get it to shoot . 

stimpy

[quickdtoo]

Here ya go Kurt...

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,80799.msg497010.html#msg497010

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,111385.msg1098341303.html#msg1098341303

[PHATINJUN]

Thanks guys I knew I just didn't dream this up and that I had read it before thank you very much. Kurt

[PHATINJUN]

More on this Can I just get a Lee universal neck expander die $9.99 that I can use on other 22-45cal cases or do I need to have a rcbs 45 cal neck expander to do this job.OR do you think I can just fire form the cases and be able to use the .452 bullets that I picked up today. Speaking of them bullets is it wrong to take advantage of a dept manager at Gander Mnt. if they have no clue as to what they are doing in the gun dept.. I found 1 box of 50 45LC/Casull 360gWNFP .452 made by Oregon Trail True Shot silver alloy bullets sitting on the bottom self no price would not scan no record of them I asked her a couple of times to bring up Midways price and I would pay that she said lets find some thing close to it on the shelf so she found some hornady jacketed close for 19.99 but I told her they were jacketed and not the same then I told her it says right here on the box it says "awesome performance at half the price of jacketed bullets" so I got them for 9.99 and when I got home I checked midway and they were 19.99 + shipping is that wrong?Kurt

[moxgrove]

It's not wrong. They are responsible for what they charge. Had she chosen to do so she could have negotiated with you or just looked it up. When I was working on the Mongo, I used modified 45 colt dies to basically nck size the cases, so your universal expander might work. You will also need to check how it chambers, some people have had trouble and needed to ream the neckor trim a bit depending on the forcing cone angle. I haven't done anything with the Mongo for a while=too many projects and not enough time.

[moxgrove]

 A couple of ideas I have had are to use a cast 452 bullet over wads in the fashion of Ed Huebel's 12 ga from he&& . This seems to be a good approach. The other was using a 8mm bullet with a couple wrapss of teflon tape to fit snugly in a shot cup wad , the reason for this size is because while I was pondering using 357 bullets, I found they bulged to .467 in my shells and wouldn't seat. The other thing is to try the ballistic products round ball slug load. I was actually thinking of discarding the round ball and using it as a wad for a bullet. I haven't ordered any yet to see what if any mods would be neccessary to make it fly. Heck I even wondered if a round ball to fit the bore might not be a good way to go. Works well in 12 gauge. It may not work for deer and such, but would knock the stuffing out of coons, or coyotes  at reasonable ranges.  Just the rantings of a madman.

[moxgrove]

I have used Unique, Universal Clays and 2400 in the Mongo. I think lil gun would be a good one to experiment with as well as blue dot. As far as loads go the loading manuals are full. Remember that a 300 grain bullet is roughly equal to 5/8 ounce and 330 grain is about 3/4 ounce. I also like to keep in mind pressures are higher with the tight fit of rifling and full bore projectiles, so I started consevatively. I used the 255 gr swc over 10 gr od unique and got decent groups=3 inches or so. 18 gr of 2400 was also promising but there was some blow back on the case as it wasn't enough pressure to expand the case. A heavier crimp and it might be a little better. Again I haven't worked with it for a while. Good luck! I hope you share your experiences with us.

[dumgunny]

 We always had really amazingly good success with the old contender 45/410 barrels with a standard 3" .410 field load with the front end cut off, the shot removed, and a 357 dia 158gr jacketed bullet seated inside the shot cup. cut em to the same overall length as the 45 colt. and bang away. The "power Piston" acts as a sabot, and the bullet can be seated with thumb pressure accuracy was very good out to about 70 yds, never chronied them, but they hit with some authority. I have taken jackrabbits with shoulder shots with them!
  I don't know why they wouldn't be even better out of the Survivor 45/410..
JMH2¢

[PHATINJUN]

I am gonna slug this bore as I put one together with brass 410 and 444 with the 452 bullets and they are very tight I can force them in but they will not eject and I have to tap them out with a rod do you think that would change if the bullet was shot ? Remember I'm new with this stuff so if you think yes it will eject right along with pieces of the barrel and action attached to it tell me so. Kurt

[moxgrove]

If it is that tight of a fit then yeah I see potential problems with pressure. The case being too tight to release the bullet . That is  what I was talking about when I mentioned the possible need to neck ream or open the forcing cone a bit. One thing you could also do is trim the case back a bit to see if that helps. If you are holding up because your forcing cone is tapering then trimming back till it slides in and out fine will do the trick. You will not be losing benefits because you will still be sitting right at the point where the forcing cone will keep your bullet square. Basically you would be making the brass custom to your chamber. definitely not a bad thing. trimming a bit at a time and then just using finger pressure to seat the bullet is a good way towork. Are you using your universal expander or som 45 colt dies? If you are using 45 colt dies, you could put a little dry lube on the case and partial resize with the decapping pin removed to see if that helps as well. I got "lucky" and got a survivor with such a sloppy chamber that it was easy to work up. Good luck! Let me know if I can help at all.

[PHATINJUN]

No I haven't used a expander die yet I just took a 45 cal .451 ML bullet with pointed tip turned it around and used small bench press to expand the case to do a quick check and will now slug it to find out just how short I may have to take the case back. Another ? here also can I just fire some 444 ammo that I have out of this barrel to fire form I know it's kind of an expensive way to fire form but I got a box of 444 that I have no other use for plus it is right at about 2" where the brass I bought is like 2.218 or should I just pull the bullets and fire form proper. Thanks for all the help so far I have had thoughts of abandoning this... depending how far I may have to cut brass back it still may be in the game. Kurt

[quickdtoo]

Kurt, there's quite a difference in .444 and 45 Colt chamber diameter dimension, and the .410/45 chamber may be even bigger, shooting full pressure .444 ammo in it may expand the unsupported case head enough to cause it to burst or seperate and/or split. I think I'd do a chamber cast with Cerrosafe to see where ya are before trying it, you'll also determine the length you need.

Tim

[moxgrove]

I agree that using 444 straight up to fireform is asking for trouble. Casting your chamber will tell you exactlt where to trim or if you want to tinker you could try doing what you are and using a pipe cutter to keep nipping back till it chambers easily. Or use your case trimmer, but you would have to keep pulling the bullet. It might be you only have to trim off a 32nd of an inch or up to a quarter. That's the bugger about Handi chambers, sometimes they are just wacky. If you haven't tried the 2.00 brass, then I would also consider just pulling the bullet and use it as a dummy case . it might just make all the difference. That's the hard part about doing things off the beaten path, there are no road signs. hth

[PHATINJUN]

Yea after I posted I thought more about that... as the brass would not be annealed no telling how it would react .I will slug it tomorrow  so I know what I'm dealing with thanks again guys. Kurt

[PHATINJUN]

Alright here is what I found with my barrel. Overall length of bore to lands is about 3.0"and is .480 out to about 1.5"where  it starts to taper... forcing cone? And I need about .480 for brass and .452 bullet to clear .479-.478 is tight 454 brass is 1.383 long so I would not gain much with the longer brass with out reaming to use .452 bullet not really any gain to speak of .But with a .451 bullet I can go full length with both the 444 marlin and the brass 410 cases so that is where I am headed but will now have to put this on the shelf as I leave for deer camp thursday and will be doing much hunting for large frezzer filler game til about the middle of Dec.Kurt
As a side note I pressed a .451 hornady red tip ML bullet into 410 case to 3.0"oal and it ejects fine so what I know now is at least I can use full length 410 brass to fill the bore just need to work up load and find good .451 bullet will start with Herco powder. Case and bullet dia. are .473 maybe that why others have had some blow back issues. wisk I had a bullet .451 and 1/2Kurt

[moxgrove]

Heck that muzzle loader bullet might be just the ticket for you. Good luck at deer camp. 

[dannyabear]

Hey Guys
I'm a newbee here, just joined. I have a 45/410 Super comanche pistol that i am working on too. A few others have tried this before. If you do a search for '450 mongo' on google you can find some info.
So far i use Remington 444 cases, expand with 45lc dies, use cci lp primer, and 15 - 18 grains of 2400 powder and either a 230 or 250 grain cast bullet. I think your rifles are stronger than this pistol and i am trying to stay below 14,000 psi loads, just like a 45 colt load. I've called alliant and hodgdon looking for load info and pressures but no one will advise due to legal responsibly.  I quit at 18.9 grains of 24oo because it 'feels' like a 3' 410 shell.
The reason for the taper in your rifle is so you cannot load a 454 casull or 460 s&w cartridge into the 45/410 barrel. The 45 and 410s operate at 12,500 to 14,000 psi. The 454 and 460 run around 50 - 60,000 psi.  Now, if you will never get rid of the gun and know that you won't try those 2 cartridges, the thing to do is to polish the chamber using emery cloth on a spindle with a die grinder to open up the chamber all the way to the forcing cone. It is very easy to do because you are only removing about 10 -15/000 (.015") of an inch.
But after doing this, a 454 and a 460 will also chamber, which may not be a problem in a rifle that you can buy in that caliber; but if it won't handle that kind of pressure, IT COULD BE DEADLY FOR THE SHOOTER>
Be careful and have fun, I am.

[Duckdog]

dumgunny

Did you have the choke tube in or out for the .410 shotshell / 357 bullet maneuver?  That sounds like an intriguing thing to mess with, if not just to see how it does.