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Author Topic: 30-30 mis-fire?  (Read 1023 times)

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Offline 44 Man

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30-30 mis-fire?
« on: December 11, 2007, 05:28:40 AM »
Ok.  I bought this older, used Topper 30-30 last spring and took a nice doe with it a couple of weeks ago.  All through installing the scope and sighting in and shooting the deer it has been completely reliable.  Yesterday I decided to chronograph the gun to help me decide whether to open it up to 30-30 AI.  I have only been shooting Winchester factory loads, and I have used all 150's until yesterday.  I decided to chronograph the 170 gr load first.  When I pulled the trigger, the hammer fell but the gun did not go off.  I open the action and the primer showed a light firing pin strike.  I tried again, this time being very certain to hold the trigger full to the rear in case I had rushed it the first time and dropped the transfer bar.  Nothing.  I opened the breech, closed it firmly and tried again.  I had 5 failures to fire.  I then decided to switch to a 150 gr cartridge and that fired fine.  I went back to the same 170 gr cartridge that failed to fire and this time it fired fine too.  I am confused as to it's temporary problem.  It didn't appear again after that.  When I first purched the gun at the store, the breech would not open.  I found the firing pin stuck forward and thought there might be something sticky in there and soaked it with wd40 to free it up.  No problems since that time.  Might the firing pin spring be bad and might it have bound up under the firing pin that may have caused the FTF? 

Oh yes, 2050 fps with the Winchester factory 170's and 2330 fps with the 150 gr loads.

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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: mis-fire?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2007, 05:49:47 AM »
Some models of older H&Rs used a double hammer spring that's anchored on both sides of the hammer pin, one anchor of the spring may have broken at the coil, it's possible the broken leg gets in the way sometimes and keeps the hammer from falling freely. I have some of the Wolff double springs if you need one, let me know, I bought em for an experiment that didn't work out. ::)

Tim
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Offline 44 Man

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Re: mis-fire?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2007, 06:51:32 AM »
Thanks Quick.  I regularly take my single action revolvers down to the last screw and the same with 1911's but I have been hesitant to start punching pins out on this Topper but it looks like I should.  I'll try to get a look at it this next weekend and let you know.  Since this rifle is 40 years old, I should probably replace the firing pin return spring also.  44 Man
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: mis-fire?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2007, 07:02:07 AM »
Brownell's and Numrich both sell parts, dunno if the current firing pin is the same, or you could get em from H&R too. I don't remember if the older frames are hollow like the SB2 is, but if they are, you can remove the stock and take a peek in there and maybe see if the hammer spring is broken and if it's a double.

Tim

www.brownells.com

www.e-gunparts.com
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Offline darat100

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Re: mis-fire?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2007, 09:02:33 AM »
44MAN

We had the same problem with my dad's 30-30 this year.  Guess what ammo he had.  The winchesters.  Bought a box of Hornady's Leverevolution, never a miss.  Been through two boxes now with no trouble.  Is it possible that the winchester primers in certain batches could cause that problem?  Please let me know what you find when you look at the springs in yours.
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Offline 44 Man

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Re: 30-30 mis-fire?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2007, 04:19:11 AM »
Ok, I just pulled the stock off from it and the receiver is solid at the rear, I cannot see into the action.  I guess I will have to take her apart to check it over.  The serial number series on this gun is AR, built in 1977.  Tim, looking down inside when the hammer is cocked, I can see the coil for the spring on the right side of the action.  The means it is a single sided spring, correct?  Thanks  44 Man
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Offline fish280

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Re: 30-30 mis-fire?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2007, 05:33:30 AM »
there may be factory case issues with the 170s you have. ya might want to mike examples of 150s and 170s up and down the case. if the forward section of the 170s are size a tad small ... or the rim ever so slightly too thin ... or ... might not be anything wrong wioth the rifle.
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: 30-30 mis-fire?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2007, 05:42:26 AM »
WD-40 will accumulate in an action and get gummy over time. I have found that Hoppes #9 will do that too. If you use it in the bore and it runs into the action, it will get gummy to the point of almost freezing the action over time. If your predecessor used WD-40 or Hoppes #9, it may have an accumulation and parts will not move freely. While you have the gun down you may want to degrease it and relube with some other kind of lubricant. Just a possibility.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 30-30 mis-fire?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2007, 05:50:42 AM »
Yeah, I would expect to be able to see both coils on it, here's an out of focus pic of a double coil spring. I don't have a 158 to look at any more. :'(

Tim

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Offline plumberroy

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Re: 30-30 mis-fire?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2007, 06:15:32 AM »
That spring is fairly easy to replace find one of the instructions for a trigger job to get an idea how to take it apart  and not having the transfer bar safety makes it simpler I replaced the hammer spring on my 157 this summer
Roy
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Offline 44 Man

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Re: 30-30 mis-fire?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2007, 10:15:37 AM »
Ok, I don't believe it is the hammer spring, it's the firing pin.  On my BC, if I cock and lower the hammer while holding the trigger, it will extend a small amount out of the recoil plate.  Same for the 30-30.  If I press the BC firing pin forward with a pen, it extends quite a bit more (as it would from inertia when firing) out of the receiver.  When I do the same with the 30-30 it stops solidly in the same position as when pressed forward by the transfer bar and hammer.  I know it used to project much farther out when I got the gun as it would do that and then 'stick' out making it hard to open the action on an empty chamber.  Either something is wrong with the spring (wouldn't push it back eariler, now binding it up from going forward fully), or possibly it is bent.  I guess I have done all the diagonisis possible without a teardown, something I have not been anxious to do.  And it will be a complete teardown as the firing pin comes out last!  Wish me luck.  More to follow.  44 Man. 

ps, do I really have to make a cover to drive the pins out without marking the receiver with the punch?  I'm usually very careful, but I do see the pins are dome headed.  Possibly I'll grind a dimple in the middle of each to hold the punch before I try to drive them out.
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Offline plumberroy

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Re: 30-30 mis-fire?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2007, 10:40:30 AM »
the firing pin comes out by driving one pin out  numich has some firing pins and springs  depending on the model. I would pull the firing pin and see if there is any build up in the channel. I have a model 157 that has been ackley improved.I had to replace the hammer spring and clean every thing to get it to fire reliablely[sp?] since we can't hunt deer with a center fire  but can hunt squirrel with one[sometimes our laws make a whole lot of sence] I've been loading a 113 gr caste bullet with small amounts of unique to get 22 velocities  mine makes one ragged whole a 40-50 yards with light loads and 1.5-2" groups with 170 cast bullets @1750 f.p.s. It does less damage to a squirrel than a cci stinger
Roy
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: 30-30 mis-fire?
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2007, 10:56:19 AM »
Quote
ps, do I really have to make a cover to drive the pins out without marking the receiver with the punch?  I'm usually very careful, but I do see the pins are dome headed.  Possibly I'll grind a dimple in the middle of each to hold the punch before I try to drive them out.

I tried and did leave a small mark.  But I took another to a smith (last time) and it came back all marked up.  I think several layers of electrical tape if you work careful would be good protection.  The pins are raised enough to locate.

Just my opinion,

JerryKo

PS mine was at the smiths for the same reason.  Firing pin would hang out and lock up an empty chamber.  He ordered a firing pin, but turned out the firing pin spring was broken.
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Offline 44 Man

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Re: 30-30 mis-fire?
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2007, 12:33:37 PM »
Ok!  I got it all apart and looked at the pin.  Seemed to lean a little to one side.  I chucked it up in my drill and turned it slowly and sure enough, it was bent.  I straighted it, and also took a little preening off the end of it.  Apparnently it became bent (before I owned the rifle) when it stuck forward and someone forced the action open.  There was also some preening on the firing pin hole on the breech side so I carefully cleaned that up also.  Now it works as it should.  I thought about making a new spring as the original seemed weak, but everything I had was heavier wire and I didn't want it to coil bind before the pin acheved full travel so I replaced the original.  It works fine now, nice and free and full travel.  I'm having trouble getting the transfer bar and bolt back in place (yes, I'm using a slave pin) so I am going to re-read the assembly instructions again.  Yes, one small scratch on the right side of the receiver, but all and all it was not as hard as I expected.  Thanks for your help.  If I need more help on re-assembly, I'll yell.  44 Man
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 30-30 mis-fire?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2007, 12:49:45 PM »
New ya know why I use the plexiglass template to protect the frame, there's no slipping with the punches, and it's easy to make.  ;)

Tim
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