Author Topic: Mistakes Galore In Hornady's 7th Edition reloading Manual! (Read 2476 times)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #30 on:** December 17, 2007, 01:22:50 AM »

someone reminded us it was a guide , much like a max. safe speed limit sign on the road . good advice ! if nothing else it lets you know when you are stepping out of a safe zone ! if the book exceeds " safe " what good is it ?
recall equals double price , only if we buy it ! never underestimate the power the consumer has . ask the Coke folks about NEW COKE !
and yes we live in a non perfect world , and yes BEST is the enemy of GOOD ENOUGH ! but i want the best i can get when i pay out my money ! Guess Walmart with the less expensive product from China has trained more than i thought to accept substandard products ! SHAME !
One last observation - why do the posters that are so hard on every one taking an ethical ( moral ) shot seem willing to accept less than correct load data ? when correct loads have as much effect as any other member of the shot process ?

Old Syko · « **Reply #31 on:** December 17, 2007, 03:43:59 AM »

SHOOTALL makes some well voiced observations, but the fact remains that we don't live in a perfect world. As an example, I picked up a new "American Made" car some years age who's transmission disintegrated on the way home from the dealership. I've been in the plant where these transmissions are assembled and QC there is considered state of the art, yet there are occasional failures that get out the door. Unless we are capable of being totally self sufficient we have no choice but to accept some failure on the part of others. If we were self sufficient we would have to deal with our own failures or be perfect. Fat chance!

In the case of load data, if you use unsafe data you yourself are a part of the failure by using unsafe practices, in that you didn't use multiple sources, start light and work up.

A saying I have always used and admired is "The best I can GET or GIVE is still not good enough."

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #32 on:** December 17, 2007, 04:27:22 AM »

if a few 100 out of a few 10000 tranies go OK but if everyone blew , bet they would have a recall ! remember every book was incorrect not just a run of a few 100 .
and i agree about working up a load ! but how many get a starter kit and go home and LOAD ? Hey if some clown kills himself the rest of us will pay in spades ! just look at trigger locks !

Graybeard · « **Reply #33 on:** December 17, 2007, 05:24:38 AM »

Geez how many actually LOOKED at the errata sheet? It ain't load data that's off except in one case apparently with the .480 Ruger which probably less than 1% of the folks who buy the book even load. If it were incorrect loads that were the errors I too would be concerned but it ain't. Hey they left out a red color and got a few C.O.Ls longer.

Either you guys haven't learned much in the years you've been reloading or you are just plain worried about things you shouldn't be. I think it's just the new mentality to jump on any manufacturer or retailer that makes a minor mistake. This is small stuff. Remember rule #1? Don't sweat the small stuff.

They've already stopped printing them and will be out with a new 8th Edition SOON.

I'm glad some of you are so perfect you never make mistakes. Me I mess up occasionally.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #34 on:** December 18, 2007, 01:35:53 AM »

glad they stopped ! 'the new edition seems like the right thing to do !
And if they allow those with the incorrect one to get a refund toward the new one then they would be a super company !
as faulty information would be out of circulation also !

Bill T · « **Reply #35 on:** December 18, 2007, 02:09:16 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on December 17, 2007, 01:22:50 AM

Guess Walmart with the less expensive product from China has trained more than i thought to accept substandard products ! SHAME !
One last observation - why do the posters that are so hard on every one taking an ethical ( moral ) shot seem willing to accept less than correct load data ?

Shootall,

You raise the most important point in all of this. We as consumers, have been trained to accept substandard products. If I produced a substandard product at my job, (Aerospace CNC Machinist), I would be fired immediately, and rightly so. My employer will not tolerate substandard performance because that's is not what he's PAYING FOR. Neither will I. This lackadaisical attitude by consumers will only assure more of the same down the road. This, "Oh well, everyone makes mistakes", attitude is being produced and parlayed by people who act like Lemmings when they spend their money. No wonder over half the people in this country are living check to check, and are dumb enough to sign on to mortgages they cannot afford. If I'm paying $30.00 for a hardbound book containing very specific information for handloading ammunition, I demand that information be correct, period. In this case it's not. There are plenty more that are. Those will get my business in the future. Bill T.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #36 on:** December 18, 2007, 02:20:06 AM »

been a plumber since 1972 , last leak cost me $ 68,000.00 ! same leak ten years ago maybe 2000.00 difference MOLD !
all for a 50 cent cpvc tee that cracked !
If we install waste systems incorrect then folks get sick some may die ! same with water and medical gas !
so if I seem hard on mistakes so be it !
alot of people have jobs that require no mistakes ! Yes mistakes do happen fer sure but to take the attitude that mistakes are no big deal is not for me !

skb2706 · « **Reply #37 on:** December 18, 2007, 03:55:34 AM »

If we except mistakes and errors, we'll get them.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #38 on:** December 18, 2007, 05:22:25 AM »

Just look at the federal govt. !

Graybeard · « **Reply #39 on:** December 18, 2007, 06:19:40 AM »

Man you guys are a tough lot. I'm glad I'm not in business to sell you anything. I probably own at least 40 loading manuals perhaps more. I don't think there is a single one I've not found errors in. Some cases they shipped errata sheets with them and in some they made it public knowledge what the errors were after the fact but issued no such sheets. But the point is that the perfect errorless loading manual has not yet been printed. You just assume it has because they didn't call attention to the errors for you as Hornady has in this case.

I've got several with major loading data errors even and I don't think any manual provider has ever published a perfect manual. If you think they have I've got a bridge to sell you real cheap and some ocean front property in AZ that I need to unload also.

Old Syko · « **Reply #40 on:** December 18, 2007, 06:37:31 AM »

I was always told there were only 2 types of folks that claimed to never make a mistake. The first type never actually did anything and the second type just plain lied. The rest of us are human and rightly expect others to be the same.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #41 on:** December 18, 2007, 07:36:51 AM »

I have always been told there are two types of people that don't strive for perfection in their work , the lazy and the unemployed !
we may never attain it but to not strive for it is less than a 100% effort ! IMHO !

Questor · « **Reply #42 on:** December 18, 2007, 08:11:38 AM »

There's a third kind of person who doesn't strive for perfection in their work: people who accomplish a lot. Perfectionism is a waste of time, you just have to meet the requirements of the situation, and exceed them a bit if customer satisfaction is a factor.

Interesting example, a person of my acquaintance does a perfect job of washing the dishes. It takes her 1 hour and 45 minutes to wash the dinner dishes for a family of four. Waste of time.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #43 on:** December 18, 2007, 08:54:36 AM »

yes those people have job security as they will no doubt be doing it over at a later date instead of moving on to new goals !
no i feel those that are masters of their trade or profession can deliver perfection and speed as in reality they go hand in hand , not having to re-do short term failure in the end surpasses GOOD ENOUGH any time !
we can disagree , its OK ! some buy Cooper rifles and some buy discount junk !

Bill T · « **Reply #44 on:** December 18, 2007, 09:20:44 AM »

"Anyone in any walk of life is capable of making a mistake" ........... Mike Nifong, former lawyer, and Durham County N.C. Prosecutor.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #45 on:** December 18, 2007, 09:38:44 AM »

yep !
and you probably saw more than your share who CHOOSE to make mistakes !
when ya start off with screwing up your goal where do ya plan ending up ?
Hey i don't walk on water either , but i don't plan on failing or working to just get by !
like the oat salesman says new oats are worth more than the ones that have already been thru. the horse once !
guess i just want new oats !
this has really surprised me , didn't know so many would support failure , we don't from govt. , or people on welfare , or those with different political views or religion's different than ours or even hunters that practice different ways of hunting or shooting ! old Wayne Z. had a slip of the tongue and we burned him at the stake sort of speak !
Guess some get a pass for what ever reason !

beemanbeme · « **Reply #46 on:** December 18, 2007, 12:12:31 PM »

I don't think anyone sets out to make mistakes and I don't think Hornady set out to make mistakes in their book.
And to you pious folks that have never made mistakes, I have no message because I've made a bunch but when I was still working and training new folks, I told them "everybody makes mistakes! It's how you treat the customer after you've made a mistake that determines whether you're a good company or a bad company." I believe that is true with companies and with people.

You folks that are screaming the loudest and pointing the hardest, have any of you contacted Hornady? Told them you wanted your money back? Or the place where you bought it? Have you asked about an exchange?

Graybeard · « **Reply #47 on:** December 18, 2007, 05:34:18 PM »

Most of them probably haven't bought it or perhaps never bought a Hornady manual at all. I don't happen to have this one as I've not done much loading since it came out and it came out pretty soon after the last new one I got. I think it might be the only one they've ever published I don't have. I still might get one just to keep my collection complete.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #48 on:** December 18, 2007, 06:41:30 PM »

Quote from: Bill T on December 14, 2007, 07:08:57 AM

...the 7th edition of the new Hornady Reloading Manual. ... It contained a "Do Not Discard" folder on the inside. Much to my surprise it contained no less than 11 corrections on 10 pages to errors in the manual. Velocity errors, O.A.L. errors, wrong primer descriptions, barrel length, as well as case trim to lengths. ...This never would have happened 20 years ago. You shouldn't have to pay close to $30.00 for a manual, then have to get out a Magic Marker and a pen to start "fixing" it. I expected more from Hornady. Bill T.

You are right - they didn't include the corrections back then.

Having looked over the errors and corrections, I'm not too concerned. The "corrected" COLs are shorter, not longer, meaning the erroneous info should not be dangerous unless the bullets end up touching the lands (something handloaders should be checking anyway). The one primer error may cause a problem but I doubt a serious one. In fact, the only serious errors I see are the .480 Ruger data (don't know how it varies from the original) and possibly the primer (CCI-41) issue.

I've called Speer a number of times to point out errors in their #10 and #12 manuals.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #49 on:** December 19, 2007, 01:28:00 AM »

Yep ! everyone is 100% correct we all make mistakes !
The difference is how we correct them !
No as a matter of fact I'm waiting to buy the corrected edition ! as I have the three previous editions i feel i can wait !
And there is my justification to voice displeasure , I have supported them in the past ! If we all take it in stride they will never know how we really feel ! And if they are the quality company I feel they are , they should want to know !
constructive criticism should always be welcome !

Bill T · « **Reply #50 on:** December 19, 2007, 02:54:18 AM »

Jeezhh,

I started this thread to help make people aware of potential problems in a newly pressed manual, and we wind up with a, "please forgive my mistakes", thread. Do as you will with what you now know. It's just that simple. As for the errors, when someone states opinion in an article there is no right or wrong. But when you produce something with very technical information, as in a textbook, it has to be letter perfect. There is no "room for error" in handloading. Typos and misspelled words in a paperback novel aren't going to hurt anyone. In a reloading manual?? Why take the risk, one way or another? More people are getting into reloading than ever before simply because of high ammo prices. Many of these people haven't a clue of what they're doing. They depend on manuals to teach them. They haven't gone thru the "learning curve" as most of us have. It's even more imperative they have perfect information. 35 years ago it was only hard core shooters that reloaded. Now it's everywhere. There is no doubt manufacturers in our sport are getting more sloppy. Just look at all the gun and ammunition recalls in the last 10 years. Yeah, I know someone will jump in and say, "it's cause of all the damn lawyers". That may be partially true, but most of it is just plain sloppy workmanship, and or manufacturing. The motto today in the business world is, "Build 'em cheap, and stack 'em deep!" Look at guns that were once considered to be "dead nuts" accurate out of the box like the Remington 700. Now it's a crap shoot if you get one that is. Remington's Q.C. has, for the most part, gone in the crapper. Accuracy that was once a sure thing has become "hit or miss". Same deal with ammo. I'm actually surprised if I can go cover to cover in a gun magazine today and not find a recall on some lot of ammo from somewhere. I've been into firearms since I was 11 years old and got my first .22 in 1963. No one is going to tell me this kind of crap went on then. It didn't. How hard is it to proof read something? We have a button to do it with our posts right here on this forum. Simply put there are forgiveable mistakes and there are not. All this sillyness about $80.00 reloading manuals if they were "perfect" is nonsense. So the damn thing takes an extra month to go to press because they want to be completely through, big deal. But today it's "more, more, faster, faster". Henry Ford proved decades ago what happens when you speed up the assembly line too much. You get junk. It's the same today, only difference is today we're more willing to accept it. Bill T.