44 mag for deer hunting

[GoodOlBoy]

Dunno about the 22 hornet on that front,  Never owned one.  22 mag has killed quite a few yes.  Not nearly as many as 22 longrifle in this state but quite a few.  I am a firm believe in the "use enough gun" school of thought.  BUT the "enough gun" is the question.  I believe that depending on the yardage you can cleanly and humanly kill a deer with most any caliber and loading, however I will throw this in.  If you are shooting 175 yards + with a pistol cartridge firearm that is less than 45 caliber at a deer you are IMHO an idiot.  Even with a 454casull or 50 S&W it is a big risk at that range.  I agree it can be done, but why.  I don't, however, believe you need to use a 50BMG with a wadcutter to kill a deer at any range.  I have had plenty of people tell me that even a 30-30 isn't enough gun.  "Why don't you use a 7mm WSSM, or a 300 RUM, or a 8mm, or a 6mm-250, or a (insert favorite suped up whatever here) instead.  Because a 30-30, a 32-20, a 45 colt, a 44-40 and a host of other calibers have been killing deer for over a hundred years safely, effectively, cleanly, and humainly if used by somebofy who can actually shoot.  Since God has not changed the design of those deer in that 100 years, AND deer have not yet taken to wearing bullet proof vests then I don't need a bullet with 2000lbs of torque, 9000 fps, or a metplat wider than the caliber of the bullet I am shooting to be a responsible and sucessful hunter.   The term "Use Enough Gun" makes my teeth hurt because it is usually being spouted to me by somebody packing a 7mm mag with a scope that could zoom in on a satellite who is about to spine or gut shoot a deer then brag about what a shot they are.

And yes CW if you can stalk and kill a deer with a ballpeen hammer you might be better off.  I don't know I haven't seen you shoot.  (ok ok that was a shot I appologize for that one already, but you gave me the opening I had to do it )

I am glad to see you love the old calibers.  And I agree a large lumbering slug will often do a cleaner better job that a hyperfast itty bitty ballistic tip heat seaking pos.  IF I could find a wide metplat bullet that would shoot good groups in my firearms I would use it.

Ya know looking back on what I wrote about the 7mm packer further up in this post I think I know what my problem, and maybe yours is CW.  I have seen SOOOO many people make horrible horrible shots with large caliber high powered firearms, and I am willing to bet you have seen alot of piss poor shots with small caliber arms.  I could be wrong but I think maybe thats why we are butting heads so much on this.

Let me make this final statement in this post.  If I cannot put the bullet exactly where I want it to go, then I cannot drop the deer (or any other critter for that matter) with a single shot with the gun I am about to drop the hammer on and I DO NOT take the shot.  Period.  I know that I CAN and HAVE made good clean shots more times than I can count with small and large caliber firearms in a variety of bullets.  I don't take a gun hunting that I have not shot extensively with the ammo I am going hunting with.  I agree about wide metplats being better, larger calibers being prefered, and more energy being a good thing.  But I believe that the MOST IMPORTANT things you can have are accurate shot placement and penetration.  Period.  If you don't have those two you can't cleanly kill.  Anything beyond those two is gravy in my book.

GoodOlBoy

[cwlongshot]

Dunno about the 22 hornet on that front,  Never owned one.  22 mag has killed quite a few yes.  Not nearly as many as 22 long rifle in this state but quite a few.  I am a firm believe in the "use enough gun" school of thought.  BUT the "enough gun" is the question.  I believe that depending on the yardage you can cleanly and humanly kill a deer with most any caliber and loading, however I will throw this in.  If you are shooting 175 yards + with a pistol cartridge firearm that is less than 45 caliber at a deer you are IMHO an idiot.  Even with a 454 casull or 50 S&W it is a big risk at that range.  I agree it can be done, but why.  I don't, however, believe you need to use a 50BMG with a wadcutter to kill a deer at any range.  I have had plenty of people tell me that even a 30-30 isn't enough gun.  "Why don't you use a 7mm WSSM, or a 300 RUM, or a 8mm, or a 6mm-250, or a (insert favorite souped up whatever here) instead.  Because a 30-30, a 32-20, a 45 colt, a 44-40 and a host of other calibers have been killing deer for over a hundred years safely, effectively, cleanly, and humanely if used by somebody who can actually shoot.  Since God has not changed the design of those deer in that 100 years, AND deer have not yet taken to wearing bullet proof vests then I don't need a bullet with 2000lbs of torque, 9000 fps, or a metplat wider than the caliber of the bullet I am shooting to be a responsible and successful hunter.   The term "Use Enough Gun" makes my teeth hurt because it is usually being spouted to me by somebody packing a 7mm mag with a scope that could zoom in on a satellite who is about to spine or gut shoot a deer then brag about what a shot they are.

And yes CW if you can stalk and kill a deer with a ball-peen hammer you might be better off.  I don't know I haven't seen you shoot.  (OK ok that was a shot I apologize for that one already, but you gave me the opening I had to do it )

I am glad to see you love the old calibers.  And I agree a large lumbering slug will often do a cleaner better job that a hyper fast itty bitty ballistic tip heat seeking pos.  IF I could find a wide metplat bullet that would shoot good groups in my firearms I would use it.

Ya know looking back on what I wrote about the 7mm packer further up in this post I think I know what my problem, and maybe yours is CW.  I have seen SOOOO many people make horrible horrible shots with large caliber high powered firearms, and I am willing to bet you have seen a lot of piss poor shots with small caliber arms.  I could be wrong but I think maybe that's why we are butting heads so much on this.

Let me make this final statement in this post.  If I cannot put the bullet exactly where I want it to go, then I cannot drop the deer (or any other critter for that matter) with a single shot with the gun I am about to drop the hammer on and I DO NOT take the shot.  Period.  I know that I CAN and HAVE made good clean shots more times than I can count with small and large caliber firearms in a variety of bullets.  I don't take a gun hunting that I have not shot extensively with the ammo I am going hunting with.  I agree about wide metplats being better, larger calibers being preferred, and more energy being a good thing.  But I believe that the MOST IMPORTANT things you can have are accurate shot placement and penetration.  Period.  If you don't have those two you can't cleanly kill.  Anything beyond those two is gravy in my book.

GoodOlBoy

 Well,
 This post brings things more into focus. Seems we are actually quite like minded. But I gotta correct you. You have me wrong, I have never been a fan of the "hot stuff". To my mind, the old timers had it right. Velocity doesn't turn me on. If wanted speed I'd own a motorcycle. I don't I own Jeeps, more specifically rock crawlers. I pick my lines and know the outcome of my choices two steps ahead. The motto there is "Slow as you can, fast as you have to".

 That being said, I have a very strong dislike for using too small a caliber for game. Wounded and lost game serves no one but the coyote. Like I said, we OWE it to the game we hunt. I have been a hand-loader for more than 30 years. I have taught classes and given instruction countless times. Suffice it to say, I know what a bullet does at various velocities, and I know how to make it do what I want. You are spot on its more where you hit'em than what you hit them with. BUT YOU MUST USE ENOUGH GUN. The 38 special will NOT make any ones list for a deer caliber bullet. Even the 32-20 doesn't make many's list. Yea, Yea, I know, I have read your stories about grampa's gun. (No offence against Gramp and everything he has done.) This caliber along with the 25-20 and Hornet are calibers this country GREW up with. They where called "pot" guns and HAD to do everything. From Rabbits, to a fox in the hen house to the occasional deer, they did it all. But this was because they where all many people had, NOT because it was the best available. Not because these people had some profound knowledge and chose this out of all other caliber. They where readily available, relatively inexpensive and where bigger and more reliable than the 22RF. I think you will agree.

CW

[GoodOlBoy]

Yep I do agree matter of fact.  I am not sayin its the prefered by any means.  I am sayin that if its what ya got then you can do the job with it.  If you are buying new by all means buy a meatier round.  I would still pick a 357 (or 38 if I absolutely had to) over something like a 223.  Thats where my small caliber gripe comes in.  I have seen people trying to deer hunt with 223s, 204s, etc and they just don't cut it in my book unless you have pinpoint accuracy and are very close.  To much risk of damage without downing the critter, theres no reason to make the animal suffer at all when you can kill it clean.  I will stand in front of anybody and say that anything less than 100 grains is insane.  Yes my grandfathers, and great grandfathers took deer with a 22lr, and yes I have too when I was a kid.  It is just too small.  There was a reason why it became against the law.  Why did I bring it up?  Because if I can take a 40 grain 22 and put it in the brainpan of a buck to kill him cleanly, then darnit a 100 grain lead round nose, or 158 grain softpoint will do it any day of the week, and do it with more punch.  If I was buying a brand new deer killing gun and it had to be a pistol round then 44 or 45 would be my choice.  44 has more store bought options, 45 colt has more handload options.

I respect what you are saying CW I really do.  Myself I have only been handloading about five or six years.  I have been hunting on my own twenty eight years come this fall.  Before that I was hunting with family since I could walk.  I have seen thousands of game taken, and all but a very few cleanly.  I have shot more ammunition in the last ten years than most people will shoot in their lifetime because I love to shoot almost as much as I love to hunt.

There was a time when I even bowhunted, but arthritis and carpel tunnel (yeah I know it ain't spelled right I was an english major before I took up working on computers for a livin) took that from me.

If there was a way to extend my hunting season to 24 months a year I would.  As it is 12 just isnt enough.

Now if you will pardon me I need to see a man about a hog problem he is havin that I think me and the old 30-30 might be able to solve (at least until I get some bench time in with the new 45-70)

God Bless.

GoodOlBoy