Author Topic: Ammo Warning. (Read 1900 times)

corbanzo · « **on:** December 04, 2007, 01:48:00 PM »

A friend of mine had a squib from CCI Blazer 45acp ammo. It was in his kimber, buldged the barrel. Lodged the bullet... chambered another... bad news.

Kimber says $240 for a new barrel. I told him to make CCI get him a new barrel.

30-06man · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2007, 01:53:13 PM »

If CCI doesn't he could press a lawsuit.

John Traveler · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2007, 02:28:49 PM »

Unfortunately, the burden of proof lies with the shooter. It is relatively easy to prove shooter negligence in this incident.

When a recoil-operated pistol is fired, the bullet has to leave the barrel and the slide has to cycle before a second round can be chambered and fired. By manually cycling the slide and firing a second shot without checking for a bore obstruction, the shooter caused the damage to his pistol.

At least you can anticipate that is what the ammo maker will claim. Does he have the bore obstruction bullet? If not, how can he prove that it was CCI ammo that made the bore obstruction?

corbanzo · « **Reply #3 on:** December 04, 2007, 03:51:44 PM »

That isn't how it happened. And no, the bullet does not have to leave the barrel.

He pulled the trigger, the gun made an off report, and buldged the barrel, with the bullet lodged.

The gun did in fact cycle, and chambered a new round, which he did not fire.

You are talking about a former member of the US Army, who shoots as often as anyone I know.

So shooter error is pretty much ruled out. It is definitely the ammo's fault. One cartridge caused the damage. Not shooting through an obstructed barrel.

jcn59 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2007, 04:32:41 PM »

You folks seem to know what you're talking about, and I know I don't, so will someone please explain to me how a squib load that can't even blow a bullet out of the barrel has enough pressure to bulge a barrel. I'm not being facetious, I just sincerely want to know.

Castaway · « **Reply #5 on:** December 05, 2007, 12:50:18 AM »

It's easy, since the bullet didn't leave and didn't allow a full decline in pressure as it would have it had continued down the barrel, part of the pressure that is normally vented towards the front is now available to act in a rearward direction to cycle the slide. I know from personal experience. I keep a buldged 45 ACP barrel on my bench as a reminder to pay particular attention to the report and recoil after each fired round.

sui generis · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2007, 03:40:48 AM »

Quote from: Castaway on December 05, 2007, 12:50:18 AM

It's easy, since the bullet didn't leave and didn't allow a full decline in pressure as it would have it had continued down the barrel, part of the pressure that is normally vented towards the front is now available to act in a rearward direction to cycle the slide. I know from personal experience. I keep a buldged 45 ACP barrel on my bench as a reminder to pay particular attention to the report and recoil after each fired round.

I guess the laws of physics were repealed when I wasn't watching.

Castaway · « **Reply #7 on:** December 05, 2007, 04:09:03 AM »

What specific law are you referring to? Newton's 3rd law is still on the books. By blocking the gasses exiting from the barrel, the action will cycle. I don't know if you have any experience with an M16, but the blank adapter that's screwed to the end of the barrel works the same way.

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #8 on:** December 05, 2007, 04:25:04 AM »

Quote from: Castaway on December 05, 2007, 12:50:18 AM

It's easy, since the bullet didn't leave and didn't allow a full decline in pressure as it would have it had continued down the barrel, part of the pressure that is normally vented towards the front is now available to act in a rearward direction to cycle the slide. I know from personal experience. I keep a buldged 45 ACP barrel on my bench as a reminder to pay particular attention to the report and recoil after each fired round.

This IS A True Statement and also the reason that when shooting a muzzleloader, You Must Always make sure that the bullet gets seated right on top of the powder. Any gap in between these two will cause that pressure wave reversal which can easily (ring) or bulge a barrel. When the same blackpowder is loaded into a metallic cartridge, the same considerations are to be taken as the reloader has to load in volume to compress the charge rather than load in the weight of grains to stay out of trouble.
You might think that this is an obvious case of a plugged bore and it is to a certain extent. The thing is that IMO, it falls more into the class of detonation rather than having mud or snow in the end of the bore.

If you find this hard to swallow I will admit to agreeing with you as part of me wonders if that .45 didnt spit out Two Bullets?
One thing is for sure, it happened in a (Oh No) second. An oh no second happens when you swing the locked car door shut and realize that the key is in the ignition. We need to be listening to those reports and felt recoil as said.

Castaway · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2007, 05:14:38 AM »

glanceblamm, congratulations on your last, and 1,000th post!

John Traveler · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2007, 01:32:08 PM »

Actually, it's been shown too many times that recoil operated pistol mechanisms DO NOT cycle the slide when the propellant gases are blocked off using a blank firing device. Hollywood special effects engineers have long understood this, and the semi-auto firing of prop guns is a case in point. The locking system (barrel ribs on M1911, barrel rib on S&W M39, 59, locking block on Walther P38, locking block on Beretta M92, etc) have been removed, and then the barrel is partially obstructed using a welded in or screwed in plug. Firing of the blanks produces the needed blowback action to cylcle the slide. Straight blow-back pistols are different. Walther PP and PPK for example, will only have the recoil spring weakened for blank ammo cycling. The same is true of blowback operated submachine guns. This has been done for a couple generations, until the relatively recent use of plastic pellet gun replicas.

Military weapons such as the M16 series, M60 and M240 machine guns are gas operated, and muzzle obstructing blank firing devices are used. In those cases, the blank firing device diverts sufficient gas pressure to operate the mechanisms. Again, these are NOT recoil operated guns.

Ask any military armourer if he has ever seen a bulged pistol barrel from firing a single round of defective ammo. I'm willing to bet that he has only seen that barrel damage from a PRIOR barrel obstruction.

KN · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2007, 01:52:43 PM »

If it was a squib load then the pressure needed to fire the bullet obviously wasn't there or it would have exited the barrel. There for there could not have been enough pressure to bulge the barrel unless he fired a second round. Sorry but it sounds like your buddy wasn't paying attention.

corbanzo · « **Reply #12 on:** December 05, 2007, 02:15:45 PM »

Squib loads will.

When the bullet stops there is enough pressure on the barrel to make it buldge.

The pressure rating on a round is CHAMBER rating. This means that for the bullet to succesfully exit the barrel without damaging it, it needs to keep moving.

After the bullet exits the chamber, if it does become lodged, that makes a pressure spike because the explosion has no let off, making the barrel buldge.

Why the hell you think there are minimum hand loads? Sure there is a good chance they will make it out of a barrel just fine...

Too low of pressure causes pressure spikes if stopped= dangerous.

jcn59 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 05, 2007, 02:31:37 PM »

I wonder why the barrel bulged right where the bullet stopped. Spike or not, the pressure was equal from the primer to the bullet, huh? Maybe it bulged where the barrel was weakest. The spike, say in a 60% load of H110, comes very shortly after ignition, I believe.

If the pressure was sufficient to push the bullet OUT of the barrel, then is it a safe bet that the pressure in the (bulged) barrel was LESS than a full load, else the bullet would have exited. This thinking of mine strongly suggests that the bullet would exit the barrel at a lower pressure than it would bulge the barrel at, else EVERY TIME any bullet exited a barrel, it would bulge the barrel first.

I can't even spell fizzicks. I'm just trying to apply common sense. Beat me to a pulp.

Castaway · « **Reply #14 on:** December 05, 2007, 02:43:38 PM »

Wow, this is getting complicated. 1st scenario - The bad round went bang first, leaving a bullet in the barrel. Second bullet pushed it out, buldging the barrel in the process. 2nd scenario - jacketed bullet had too light of a powder charge, leaving the jacket in the barrel. Following bullet met the struck jacket, pressure spiked, barrel buldged

sui generis · « **Reply #15 on:** December 05, 2007, 03:20:48 PM »

Quote from: Castaway on December 05, 2007, 04:09:03 AM

What specific law are you referring to? Newton's 3rd law is still on the books. By blocking the gasses exiting from the barrel, the action will cycle. I don't know if you have any experience with an M16, but the blank adapter that's screwed to the end of the barrel works the same way.

The OP was talking about a 1911-type recoil operated, locked breech weapon, NOT a gas-operated weapon. A squib load leaving a bullet in the barrel of a recoil operated, locked breech weapon AND cycling the action is about as likely as the sun rising in the West. Either would badly violate physical laws.

I would not be terribly surprised if a squib load in a gas-operated weapon might operate the action as long as there was enough powder to drive the bullet past the gas port, although I would be surprised if it weren't obvious if it occurred in a string of ball ammunition.

I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if a squib could at least open the breech on a blow-back pistol but, again, I think the shot would seem a little odd.

jcn59 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 05, 2007, 04:23:02 PM »

This is fun; hypothesizing with a bunch of real bright guys.

ER....what force would cause the slide to move rearward if the barrel were plugged up in front and shut up by the breech? Seems like the force forward & rearward would be equal.

I betcha that if you removed the barrel, welded it shut both ends & put a hydraulic fitting on one end that the barrel would not move or bulge as you pumped oil in it to 5000 psi. It would just sit there, & you could bet that 5000 psi would blow a jacketed .45 bullet out if the barrel was open on that end. Probably any edition of Machinery's Handbook could tell us what the burst strength of a tube of barrel steel was, if you know what alloy Kimber uses.

Castaway · « **Reply #17 on:** December 06, 2007, 01:54:49 AM »

Well, I guess my next step is to take what I previously thought was a buldged barrel and reinstall it in my 1911 since what happened really can't happen.

jcn59 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 06, 2007, 02:49:14 AM »

Corbanzo is right. I think the ammo manufacturer has to explain why THEIR bullet is stuck in HIS FRIEND'S barrel. Seems like THAT is the evidence. The "why" of it is interesting but that's all.

CCI may be anxious to make it right. If not, your friend will have their letter refusing to buy him a new barrel. If there is ONE of their bullets stuck in the bulged barrel they won't have much of an argument. If there are two, your friend is still in the game. Next step is to consult with a lawyer to see what the options are.

Maybe one of our lawyer friends could confirm this but I think jurisdiction would be where your friend lives. I would expect that CCI would find it advantageous to send a check for $240. after your friend signed a no-further-liability statement.

I'd be infuriated if some commercial ammo wrecked my gun!

My .02.

Savage · « **Reply #19 on:** December 06, 2007, 06:58:13 AM »

Come on guys, keep this going! I'm not an engineer, or a ballistician. I'm still puzzling over how a round that didn't have enough pressure to push the bullet out of the barrel, could bulge it. I have been reloading for over 40 yrs, and have had a couple of squibs. Never had one to bulge a barrel, or------completely cycle the action. Enlighten me!
Savage

KN · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2007, 02:43:03 PM »

Thars because it can't happen. Not enought preassure to move the bullet = not enough preassure to cause any damage. Simple phisics. It doesn't take a lot of preassure to force a bullet out of a barrel. As for minimum loads in reloading data, Light loads are notorious for causing all kinds of poor ignition and large deviations in performance. You know, like squib loads!

30-06man · « **Reply #21 on:** December 06, 2007, 03:12:33 PM »

So to bulg the barrel he would have had to fire again. Am I understanding this right?

KN · « **Reply #22 on:** December 06, 2007, 06:37:57 PM »

yup. that's how it happens.

odoh · « **Reply #23 on:** December 07, 2007, 02:18:53 PM »

Didn't read each one of the posts but FWIW my son had a squib load in his 380 on their traditional Thanks Giving excursion to the quarry a couple weeks back. His father in law would've fired the second rnd if unburn powder granules hadn't prevented slide going full closed. I'll have to chk if it was CCI

corbanzo · « **Reply #24 on:** December 09, 2007, 12:11:57 PM »

haha, not to stir the pot. but I was partially wrong. He told me all this in an email, which is why I thought what I said. Upon talking to him on the phone, he told me the whole story.

He had a round with a strange report and not much kick, but it did cycle fine. Which made him think everything was ok. He did continue shooting, without incident. He did notice the gun wasn't cycling too well. Upon checking the weapon, he then noticed the buldge in the barrel.

I thought he noticed it right away, I was incorrect. So the gun continued to function... after the squib and the buldge in the barrel.

So my thoughts on the subject after hearing the whole story:

The round that was fired became partially lodged, increasing the pressure and buldging the barrel, which pressure was not great enough to explode the barrel, but did send the round out of the barrel after the increase.

I don't think it would have been possible for the gun to handle a bullet stack, still shooting both rounds out of the barrel. So it was not the round after the squib that did it.

S.B. · « **Reply #25 on:** December 10, 2007, 03:55:14 AM »

I had a squib load during a PPC match, years ago, and it bulged the barrel when another was fired. I took a file and filed the profile down to original configuration. Black ring inside barrel that I couldn't get out, while cleaning but, accuracy didn't seem to suffer in the least? Upon the advice of the master range officer, I continued to use this barrel.
I guess what I'm saying if there isn't any excessive damage to the barrel, that is obvious, don't give up on it.
Unless of course, if you've got the $240 to put into it?

S.B. · « **Reply #26 on:** December 10, 2007, 04:04:20 AM »

Quote from: 30-06man on December 04, 2007, 01:53:13 PM

If CCI doesn't he could press a lawsuit.

Jiust what shooting needs, another legal liitagation? Who is going to win with this?

30-06man · « **Reply #27 on:** December 11, 2007, 03:40:46 PM »

Both will. CCI will stop other pontiental lawsuits and he would get a new barrel. If they do not know about it then they can't have a recall to get any other affected ammo from possibly hurting anyone. Its a testimate to how well that barrel held up to that kind of pressures of a squib load and another round fired.

S.B. · « **Reply #28 on:** December 11, 2007, 04:49:49 PM »

I don't think you understood the pun in my response?

30-06man · « **Reply #29 on:** December 12, 2007, 01:37:25 PM »

I know what you meant. And it has nothing to do with banning guns.