M-1841 42-Pounder Army Rifle

[Double D]

I built my 1-inch cannon as a muzzleloader project at gunsmith School in 1985.  I made the gun by upscalling William Greens plans for the m-1841 42-Pounder.  Green took his plans from guns recovered with the U.S.S. Cairo sunk in 1862 near Vicksburg.



The 42 PDRS on the Cairo are supposed to be M-1841 42-Pounder Army Rifles mounted on modified navel gun truck using the elevating screw from the field gun carriage instead of  quin. Greens plans have a picture of a gun truck with elevator. 



I have seen one of these 1841 42 PDRS tubes at the fort in St Augustine, Florida.  It is a big gun.  That tube is also a smooth bore. 

I have never been to Vicksburg. All the online photos I can find identified as U.S.S. Cairo  42 PDR's show a gun with a quin. No elevator.

Further these guns are all referred to as rifles.  The tube at St Augustine is not rifled.  What little I can find seems to indicated that when the 42 PDR's were rifled they also banded breeched.  Greens plans and the picture of the guns on the Cairo do not show bande breech guns.

So the questions.

1. Was the M-1841 42-Pounder Army Rifle a rifled bore in 1841?

2. Does anyone have any actual photo's of the M-1841 42-Pounders on the U.S.S. Cairo?

[GGaskill]

1. Was the M-1841 42-Pounder Army Rifle a rifled bore in 1841?

I doubt it.  I don't think any US artillery was rifled until just before the Civil War.

2. Does anyone have any actual photo's of the M-1841 42-Pounders on the U.S.S. Cairo?

Take a look around the U.S.S. CAIRO Gunboat and Museum.  Maybe an email to VICK_Interpretation@nps.gov can get an answer to the questions.

[seacoastartillery]

DD,
 
     We have admired your rendition of the Army version of the 42 pounder during the discussion on recoil reducing and maneuvering gear.  Referred to as Seacoast Guns, Patterns 1840 and 1845, they were not designed with rifling in mind.  George is correct; this came later with experiments in 1856 to around 1859 and semi-production after that point.  True production of the "James System" rifling started in 1861 for obvious reasons.  The 32 pounder and 42 pounder guns were favored for conversion by the north and the south because they were so numerous and after conversion were called 64 pounders and 84 pounders because of the new rifled bolt weight.  Most were not banded, but this was risky, of course, as accidents would prove.  These guns were supplied to a variety of commanders in completely different situations.  Some went west to arm the City Class gunboats like the Cairo and some went south to provide breeching batteries for the Federal investment of southern-held forts like Fort Pulaski near Savannah, Georgia. There are 4 rifled, unbanded  32 Pounders at Fort Gaines, AL today and they were fairly common in Confederate wartime installations and on naval vessels.

     The Cairo guns recovered in the 1960s included at least three rifled 42 pounders, a pattern 1831 with no muzzle ring and a breeching ring above the cascable,  9 lands/grooves, (RH) and two rifled pattern 1845 which look exactly like yours.  They also had 9 lands/grooves, (RH) and all three were unbanded.  We have never run into a pattern 1841, nor have we been able to find that designation in "The Big Guns" by Olmstead, Stark and Tucker.  The pattern 1840 is almost identical to the 1845, with the exception that it was unturned whereas the pattern 1845 was completely lathe turned.  We agree with George, your best bet for a photo would lie with the Nat. Military Park people in Vicksburg, MS. who maintain and interpret the Cairo site.

Hope this helps,

Tracy and Mike

[Double D]

Tracy and Mike. 

The 42 PDR's guns on the Cairo were  supposed to be pattern  M-1841 Arny rifles.  That conflicts with the Registry, but I would consider the registry a bit more accurate.    Are Army rifles the same thing as Seacoast 42 PDRs ?  Did the Army have charge of coastal defenses?  Sure would clarify a few points.


George,

Your response about sending an email to  NPS is one of those " duh, why didn't I think of that" responses.  I will get an email off to them.

[seacoastartillery]

     

Tracy and Mike. 

The 42 PDR's guns on the Cairo were  supposed to be pattern  M-1841 Arny rifles.  That conflicts with the Registry, but I would consider the registry a bit more accurate.    Are Army rifles the same thing as Seacoast 42 PDRs ?  Did the Army have charge of coastal defenses?  Sure would clarify a few points.

     Yes, Army rifles are the same as Seacoast rifles.  There may be exceptions, but from our reading, that appears to be true.  Federal Army Heavy Artillery units manned these guns in various locations, most generally on the east and southern coasts during the war and also in the forts which surrounded Washington.  Obviously, the 42 pounder conversion rifles went wherever a need arose, including the arming of the western gunboats.  All of the Cairo's 42 pounder conversion rifles were nine groove, but 16 and 18 groove 42 Pdr. conversion rifles were out there at this time.  Two were served by Federal Army troops on Tybee Island.  These were the rifles, along with two 32 Pdr. conv. rifles and a 24 Pdr. conv. rifle and five 30 Pdr. Parrott siege rifles ended the invincibility of the Third System forts including Ft. Pulasky which guarded the Savannah River mouth. These were James System rifled with sixteen or eighteen grooves.  A special groove scraper had to be fashioned to clean these conversion guns which fired the "birdcage" James shells and bolts.  Without this thorough cleaning of the rifling, after each shot, they would not fire accurately.  A thorough cleaning is something that long range, muzzleloading artillerymen certainly practice today!   
      These guns are all over the U.S., with four of these big rifles in Mansfield, Ohio!

Best regards,
Mike and Tracy

[GGaskill]

Did the Army have charge of coastal defenses?

Yes, the coastal artillery bases were manned by Army personnel as late as WW II although more in an anti-aircraft mode by then.

[seacoastartillery]

     Yes, Sea Coast Artillery became U.S. Army Coastal Artillery in the years leading up to WW1.  By WW2, Coast Artillery became the favored term for coastal defense. 
Almost forgot, one week ago Mike and I visited the Mississippi River Museum, part of the Mud Island complex in Memphis, TN.  If anyone is interested, that's a real good place to get up close to and touch one of these 42 Pdr. conversion rifles we have been talking about.  South Bend Replicas produced seven of the big guns which were on board the Cairo after they studied the  originals at Vicksburg, MS.  Three 42 Pdr. conversion rifles and three 8" Shell Guns were produced for a replica City Class Gunboat and one big gun for a wooden barbette carriage on a bluff overlooking the gunboat.  Great place to visit with some interesting artillery artifacts as well as these large cannon.

Tracy and Mike

[Double D]

So does anyone have a picture of the  1845 Guns on the Cairo with a powder can or 6 foot human standing by showing the elevator?

[seacoastartillery]

REPLICA 42 Pdr. conversion rifles AND 8" naval chambered cannon are pictured here.  These are the guns which SBR made following their study of the originals which came from the Cairo wreck.  It was very dark inside the casemate, so some of the camera angles are not perfect, but with a big "No Flash Photography" sign posted we had to bend the rules a little to get ANYTHING out of this experience!   The stern was not included in the display.  This Mississippi River Museum is found on Mud Island near downtown Memphis.  This "War on the Mississppi" section featured a Union, "City-Class" Ironclad Gunboat and many historical photos and artifacts from this type.  Also there was a 42 Pdr. on a wooden barbette carriage mounted on a bluff overlooking the river, representing a Confederate battery.  All in all very interesting!  AND, if you like Bar-B-Que like we do, give Jim Neely's Interstate Bar-B-Que just north of the I-55 and Route 61 south side of Memphis at 2265 South Third St. a try.  It's in this top three in the country per us.  We have been there twice now and will be back again!

DD, hope this helps you out!

Best regards,
Mike and Tracy

[Double D]

I can't see the pictures

[seacoastartillery]

     I am trying to restore these, but they don't want to display except as links which I detest.  I'll try something else.

Well, look at that, finally.  Broadside gun, actual a 42 Pdr. conversion rifle, formerly a 42 Pdr. smoothbore.

















All the information we have on these is posted above; hope these restored pics help you.

Tracy and Mike

[cannonmn]

They did a GREAT job of ceanin' all the mud outta that ship!

[Artilleryman]

Nice set of photos, very instructive.  What is the gun in the bottom photo?

[seacoastartillery]

     The gun in the bottom photo is an 8" chambered cannon, mostly used by the Union Navy, but not exclusively.  Weighing 63 cwt, (U.S. not British hundredweight), there were three of these cannon on the USS Cairo when she was sunk by an electrically detonated Torpedo just north of Vicksburg, MS in the Yazoo River, on the cold morning of December 12, 1862.  These cannon were the third pattern of this gun and were located in the bow of the Cairo as the #2 starboard broadside gun,( pictured), and the #2 port broadside gun and the center bow gun.   
The 8" gun pictured, made by SBR, represents the original which was cast in 1845 at FPF, (Fort Pitt Foundry) in Pittsburgh, PA.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike   

P.S.  cannonmn,     Mike, a former U.S. Navy ASROC Gunnersmate, told me he knows exactly how they cleaned all that Yazoo mud outta there; a combination of firehoses,
                            mops and toothbrushes were used!!!  Drying and re-painting followed.