weatherby vanguard

[qmastersgt]

weatherby vanguard 308. got one, what do you think. I am a white tail hunter. What kind of accurate range could I expect?

[LHitchcox]

These rifles are famous for out of the box accuracy. The .308 has enough steam for a 250 yd shot easily.

Leon

[safetysheriff]

if that vanguard has a 24" barrel, like they have had in the recent past, and if you'll handload it with a good 150 grain boat-tailed bullet like a sierra, hornady, or nosler, with imr 4064 or alliant's reloder 15, you'll take a whitetail at 350 yards if you are accurate enough.    the only problem i see is either a 'slow' barrel on your rifle restricting the needed velocity, or your inability to make the shot.    AND, i'm not saying i could dope the wind at that distance.    i couldn't do it on a windy day.   i'm not schooled in such shooting.    but you may be; or you may become that skillful with practice.    the point is that the .308 cartridge out of a good 24" barrel, with the right bullet, is a 350 yd' whitetail killer.    winchester brass and winchester 'wlr' primers are pretty popular with competition shooters, BTW.   

merry christmas to you,

ss'   

[qmastersgt]

Thanks guys. Merry Christmas to you too.

[Brithunter]

Forget about the Boat tails, heck they don't make any difference in trajectory until over 300 yards and in most cases flat based bullets are more accurate .

    Your rifle sounds like a good one, please let us know how you get on with it.

[safetysheriff]

Forget about the Boat tails, heck they don't make any difference in trajectory until over 300 yards and in most cases flat based bullets are more accurate .

   

Bh'
i agree that a flat-based bullet generally settles down quicker, and is potentially more accurate in the first 300 yds.   but with the question being about "what kind of accurate range could i expect" i'd still go with the boattail.  (this is since he did mention he's a whitetail hunter which by inference has something to do with the use of this rifle).   the reason is to keep the velocity of the bullet up in case it's needed for reliable expansion at that 350 yd distance.    the difference between the sierra flat-base and the boattail is almost 10% in energy.   more importantly is the velocity being kept nearer the 2,100 fps' mark with the boattail.....if that should be one of the design parameters of the sierra bullet.  (i don't know, really; but suspect it could be important in a high-powered rifle projectile).

lastly: oftentimes boat-tailed bullets open up more readily than do flat-based designs.   with a whitetail i think that could be important.    it would be especially important in some situations where the hunting fields are crowded and one must put his deer down quickly to keep someone else from tagging it.   

take care,

ss'   

[nomosendero]

How does your rifle group? This has more to do with the range than the cartridge, even though both are important.

[Brithunter]

Forget about the Boat tails, heck they don't make any difference in trajectory until over 300 yards and in most cases flat based bullets are more accurate .

   

Bh'
i agree that a flat-based bullet generally settles down quicker, and is potentially more accurate in the first 300 yds.   but with the question being about "what kind of accurate range could i expect" i'd still go with the boattail.  (this is since he did mention he's a whitetail hunter which by inference has something to do with the use of this rifle).   the reason is to keep the velocity of the bullet up in case it's needed for reliable expansion at that 350 yd distance.    the difference between the sierra flat-base and the boattail is almost 10% in energy.   more importantly is the velocity being kept nearer the 2,100 fps' mark with the boattail.....if that should be one of the design parameters of the sierra bullet.  (i don't know, really; but suspect it could be important in a high-powered rifle projectile).

lastly: oftentimes boat-tailed bullets open up more readily than do flat-based designs.   with a whitetail i think that could be important.    it would be especially important in some situations where the hunting fields are crowded and one must put his deer down quickly to keep someone else from tagging it.   

take care,

ss'   

  Sorry but the difference in the "Real World" in favor of the Boat Tailed bullets is not enough to make them worth it especially as Boat Tailed bullets have an earned reputation of shedding their jackets and core slip. And no I don't bother with "Premium" bullets as the Game I hunt is served very well with the old Hornady Spire Point or Speer Hot Core  . The thing is though that flat based bullets of this construction perform excellently on even Whitetail Deer. Normal contrsuction "Cup and Core" bulelts DO expand well on Whitetails at NORMAL hunting ranges and your comment abotu lack of expansion leads me to believe that you favour not only Boat tailed Bulelts but those of premium/bonded contruction  Just because you like them or have been persuaded to like them by the ad hype  please don't try and foist their use on those ,like myself, who do not find the need for them.

     I suggested Flat Based bullets as I have found them to be more accurate, they have more shank to hold the neck and take the rifling and seeing as how in my normal hunting I will never see a shot over 300 yards. They work just fine. I also discovered that if I shoot the deer about the top of the heart so it takes the major blood vessels that are their, it also takes out both lungs and the deer more often than not drop on the spot. It's when I get it wrong and drop the bullet into the heart that the beast runs  .

    Oh the MkV111 .303 cartridge used a Boat tailed bullet to help it retain more velocity and energy than the flat based MkV11 however here they were talking about ranges in excess of 800 yards  and use against aircraft and hard targets.

      If you really want more initial hitting power and rapid yet reliable expansion than I suggest you use Round Nose bullets as they are reknowned for this. The large round nose give more impact, more of a hammer blow on contact as do flat nosed bulelts, this is why there are still those who prefer the 220 grain bullet in the ole .30 Springfield  .

[safetysheriff]

Forget about the Boat tails, heck they don't make any difference in trajectory until over 300 yards and in most cases flat based bullets are more accurate .

   

  Sorry but the difference in the "Real World" in favor of the Boat Tailed bullets is not enough to make them worth it especially as Boat Tailed bullets have an earned reputation of shedding their jackets and core slip. Just because you like them or have been persuaded to like them by the ad hype  please don't try and foist their use on those ,like myself, who do not find the need for them.

     I suggested Flat Based bullets as I have found them to be more accurate, they have more shank to hold the neck and take the rifling and seeing as how in my normal hunting I will never see a shot over 300 yards.    
      If you really want more initial hitting power and rapid yet reliable expansion than I suggest you use Round Nose bullets as they are reknowned for this. The large round nose give more impact, more of a hammer blow on contact as do flat nosed bulelts, this is why there are still those who prefer the 220 grain bullet in the ole .30 Springfield  .

Brit'

if you are going to preach or start with the disrespect then i consider you to be in over your head.    i don't believe in premium bullets being necessary for anything.   period.    the only premium bullets i've ever bought, if any at all, were "seconds" on sale cheap from nosler.    period.    i usually recommend core-lokt's or spire points.   and i know why i believe in them.    but that was not the question put to us.   

your 300 yard, self-imposed limit has very little to do with our original poster, as well.    he asked for an "accurate range" which is his choice ..... regardless of what you or i think.    and i admitted up front my limitation re: doping the wind.    but if he chooses to stretch the envelope and try for a deer at 350 yards, which i believe is proper (if one can handle such shooting) with a boattailed Sierra, then more power to him.    it's not like he's asking us for a "500-yard recommendation".     take a look at the Lee Shooter program if you want to see why i like the sierra somewhat more for his use.   

lastly:  there is some debate about "round-nosed" bullets providing more of a hammer blow.   i for one wouldn't recommend them over a .30-30 bullet loaded in a .308 to .308-caliber velocities on whitetails.    (that's an old Jack O'Connor trick)    then too, i have seen in print where spire points are capable of opening up just as readily on game as are the round-nosed.    what i think you fail to realize is the effect of the reduced terminal velocity that a 220 gr' bullet has out of a .30-06.   i see it as poor on whitetails, and more of a 'stopper' bullet for larger, dangerous game.    i don't see a comparison of round-nosed 220 gr' .30 caliber bullets with "real world" bullets of flat-nosed design.    how many times are we going to read about whitetails, mulies, and antelope running off for long distances after neat, little "one-caliber" holes were punches through them with heavy-duty bullets?     

now i've taken to some preaching.    how am i doing?

if the question hadn't been about whitetails, which i believe are properly hunted with standard, quick-opening bullets, then i'd have possibly recommended a flat-based projectile.    sierra boattails are not premium bullets in my opinion.

take care,

ss'   

[Brithunter]

Hi There,

    In answer to your post  I suggested Flat Based bullets because I have always found them to not only more accurate but also more reliable and high velocity is not always required for core seperation. My First ever deer that I shot was a Roe Doe  and she weigh (dressed) 35lbs which is a good sized Roe Doe. I used my newly acquired Brno ZKK 601 in .308 and a Handload using a Sierra 180 Grain bullet. I chose the 180 grain because I was worried that a lighter bullet on small deer might cause too much carcase damage and the whole idea was to eat the venison  .

    It was Feburary and when I got the shot it was from a high seat (Ladder stand) at about 90 yards at the shot the Doe dropped, rolled over, and lay still. The bullet clipped a rib going in and tore out three coming out and blew up  . Now one does not expect a 180 grain bullet that would normally be one selected for much larger animals such as Moose and Elk to blow up on a 35Lb+ Roe Doe. Now I chose a mid range load from the Hogdgon #26 manual and several years later got to chronograph the load and found out that my ZKK 601 has a slow barrel  . Velocity was only about 2550fps to it brings up the question why the bullet blew up even more after all if it only started out at 2550 fps it was going slower at 90 yards and on a deer not much bigger than a Coyote it should never have blown up, yes I was picking up pieces of copper jacket out of the Tenderloins and liver as well as the inside of the shoulders. OK the Doe dropped on the spot  but Roe are not "hard" beasts I would hate to think what would have happened if that had been a Wild Bore  .

     Another example of Flat based bullets and Boat tailed ones and their lack of accuracy with happened during load development in my 7x57 that I used on the Whitetail hunt in 2003. I was using Hornady 139 grain Spire Points and was trying different powdrs and seating depths trying to get the best load that I could. Well the box of bullets emptied so I went to get some more only to find that they only had either Flat Point bullets or BTSP's in 139 grain Hornady's ( I see Hornady has dropped the Flat points  pity as they were the most accurate but would not feed from one side of the magazine) So I got a box of the BTSP's and loaded some up thinking that as I already had found a good load with the Spire Points loading the BTSP's to the same it would be somewhere near.

   At the range I was horrified to find that the BTSP's shot a group of about 2 MOA  and time for the hunt was looming. I eventually got them shooting around MOA if a tad under but nowhere near the 1/2 MOA that the Spire Points and the Flat Point produced. Now if the Boat tail is meant for longer range how ................................................................................... how can they be used when the accuracy is worse? OK they carry more energy at 400 yards+ but if you cannot place the bullet accurately what use are they?

    I also noticed that some Sierra Game Kings I brought for the .270 are not as accurate as the Pro Hunters I had previously. So far I have only found one Boat Tailed bullet to be accurate and that was the Nosler ballistic Tips which I have used in 165 grain .308, 130 grain .270 and 100 grain 6.5mm. The Hornady SST in 6mm has not prooved to be as good as the Ballistic tip in my load development in the 6mm either.

   I will gladly give up a few ft lbs of energy to be able to place the bullet accurately  . Oh mentioning the 30-30, as my particular rifle is a custom bolt action in that chambering I use 130 grain Hornady Spire Points loaded to 2800fps. As yet I have not managed to get the Hornady 150 grain Round Nose to shoot as well as the 130 spire point yet the Sierra 150 grain Flat Point 30-30 bullet is very accurate even at the elevated velocities I load for this rifle. If memory serves me correctly I loaded the Sierra's to around 2750fps and they prooved very effective on Muntjac Deer. Sadly the Winchester 150 grain factory ammunition has prooved inaccurate only giving about 2 1/2-3 MOA groups in both HP and Silver tip yet with teh hornady 130 grain handload will group around 5/8".

   I have stuck to Hunting bullets as that is what I do mostly, target bullets are another ball game  yes I know that some folks hunt with them however here it's illegal as the law states that the bulelt used must be designed to expand. Target bullets are not!

[Sweet 6.5]

   I will gladly give up a few ft lbs of energy to be able to place the bullet accurately  .

I totally agree!

[safetysheriff]

in light of the fact that the 'target' is a deer, being rather a fair-sized object, i think that velocity sufficient to expand the bullet is important with accuracy only being equal to that consideration.   i would not put accuracy alone at the top.   '

i don't pay attention to energy really.    let's be honest.   .224 caliber bullets of proper construction and terminal velocity will kill some pretty large deer.    and they don't have 1000 ft/lbs of energy at the point of impact.    they work because of their design parameters, reasonable bullet placement,(not necessarily pinpoint precision on lung shots) and proper velocity in concert with bullet design.

take care,

ss'   

[ssghelmick]

The bullet debate aside I would say that you are limited only to the range of your shooting ability with the .308 on white tailed deer it is a great cartridge as well as inherently accurate.

As far as bullet type and construction go I have tried a ton and it all boils down to which one your rifle shoots best. While one rifle may like one load it may not like the next and so it goes. Deer are not the toughest animal on the planet and I have found that any hunting bullet of proper size and weight will do the job if the shot is placed correctly regardless of type or construction.

Good luck

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

in light of the fact that the 'target' is a deer, being rather a fair-sized object, i think that velocity sufficient to expand the bullet is important with accuracy only being equal to that consideration.   i would not put accuracy alone at the top.   '

i don't pay attention to energy really.    let's be honest.   .224 caliber bullets of proper construction and terminal velocity will kill some pretty large deer.    and they don't have 1000 ft/lbs of energy at the point of impact.    they work because of their design parameters, reasonable bullet placement,(not necessarily pinpoint precision on lung shots) and proper velocity in concert with bullet design.

take care,

ss'   

    You reply says lots to me. one thing it shouts is that your used to American hunting well for your information the Deer elsewhere are not the same. The vital zone on a Muntjac Deer is about 4" the deer stands about 24" at the shoulder and they weigh about 25-30 lbs so accuracy IS IMPORTANT  Roe Deer are a little bigger but again your looking at a 5-6" vital zone you can forget yout 8-10" vital zone here.

   Before Stalking here you will normally be asked to shot a target, one to check zero and secondly to make sure your capable of hitting the target. if you cannot place your shots inside a 3" circle then you simply don't get to stalk deer. Despite what you read on the internet it's amazing how many "experienced" hunters struggle to put 3 shots inside the 3" circle.

    I recall a friend Tony relating how one of his "Clients" cleanly missed a Roe Buck from the standing position even though he used a single stick for support at 45 yards 

As far as bullet type and construction go I have tried a ton and it all boils down to which one your rifle shoots best. While one rifle may like one load it may not like the next and so it goes. Deer are not the toughest animal on the planet and I have found that any hunting bullet of proper size and weight will do the job if the shot is placed correctly regardless of type or construction.

    The strange thing is that I was just reading a post on another site about "Solid Copper" bullets and all but one responder said that they got best accuracy using flat based bullets. Even though the post was about solid copper bullets it always spills over to normal construction bullets as it seems a lot like myself have never tried or saw the need to try solid copper bullets.

[safetysheriff]

Brit'

you are in over your head; and i guess i'm just going to say it already.    please let me explain....

the lady who posted this topic originally used the words " i am a white tail hunter".     that means that we'll discuss whitetails with her; and we'll discuss the other deer with you After we're done speaking to her post.    your ego is running away with you, Brit, i think.    but you are free to keep on 'correcting' my posts if the site will further allow it.   

as far as your deer are concerned, with their smaller stature, i'd recommend you use a .22-250 with 60 grain hornady spire points and forget posting, asking, conjecturing, etc.etc.etc.    just shoot 'em and watch 'em drop.   just like we oftentimes do over here with the same cartridge on our deer.    the .22-250 is capable of match-grade accuracy and will kill a deer that weighs 260 lbs (maybe much more) if properly hit at a distance not beyond 225 yards i'd guess.    it's just as easy as shootint fish in a barrel, Brit, if you are practiced with your firearm.   

by the way, i never said accuracy isn't important.    i said it's no more important than proper velocity that works in concert with the (proper) design parameter of the bullet At Point of Impact.

incidentally, are Muntjac really worth the time?   i don't hunt rabbits, nor squirrel, because i can't see the effort for just one sandwich after cleaning the game.    there's nothing wrong with hunting rabbits, squirrel, and Muntjac.  it just doesn't strike me as being rewarding.   

take care,

ss'   

[qmastersgt]

Are you kidding? I'll hunt frogs, squirrels, rabbits, or anything else. I just want to be outside. I spent a lot  of time in prison. I was a Correctional Sergeant,  but is  still hard to live behind bars in that environment. I am retired, And I just do not want to be cooped up. I hunt hard, I fish hard, and I civil war reenact. It is not about what I bring home. It is  about fresh air and freedom. I'll have time to be inside in the nursing home. I'm making memories, war stories, and comrades. If I'm lucky, I'll be able to use them in the nursing home. THAT is what I bring home. I Think it's worth  the effort.

[Brithunter]

incidentally, are Muntjac really worth the time?   i don't hunt rabbits, nor squirrel, because i can't see the effort for just one sandwich after cleaning the game.    there's nothing wrong with hunting rabbits, squirrel, and Muntjac.  it just doesn't strike me as being rewarding.   

    Yes stalking Muntjac is not only interesting and challenging but the Venison obtained on a successful stalk is one of the tastiest I have tried 

as far as your deer are concerned, with their smaller stature, i'd recommend you use a .22-250 with 60 grain hornady spire points and forget posting, asking, conjecturing, etc.etc.etc.    just shoot 'em and watch 'em drop.   just like we oftentimes do over here with the same cartridge on our deer.    the .22-250 is capable of match-grade accuracy and will kill a deer that weighs 260 lbs (maybe much more) if properly hit at a distance not beyond 225 yards i'd guess.    it's just as easy as shootint fish in a barrel, Brit, if you are practiced with your firearm.

      Well unfortunately until very recently it was illegal to shoot deer in England and Wales using anything less than .240" cal.  Recently our parliment has seen fit in it's infinate wisdom to allow the use of .22" centrefire rifles to shoot Non-Native species such and Muntjac and Chinese Water Deer but for some reason the shooting of Roe Deer with anything less than .240" cal is stil illegal  ..

     Now as to the accuracy of the Remington .22-250 cartridge I am well aware of it as several years ago I had a BSA CF2 so chambered which I sold after the ranges at Bisley decreed it was too fast to use on their hallowed ranges  I now have a .222 Remington chambered rifle, I like the cartridge very much, the rifle I acquired is a Baikal MH18, same as the Spartan from Remington and is of course a single shot break action and I like it however having recently seen the new CZ 527 deluxe I am wondering about swopping it for one of those.

   As to the poster saying that she was a Whitetail Hunter being American that when Deer are concerned is a given  after all you only have four native deer species in the US Whitetail, Blacktailed and Mule deer, Wapiti are really a sub species of Red Deer and of those only the Whitetail's range covers almost all of the USA.

[safetysheriff]

I just want to be outside.    And I just do not want to be cooped up.  It is  about fresh air and freedom. I'll have time to be inside in the nursing home. I'm making memories, war stories, and comrades. If I'm lucky, I'll be able to use them in the nursing home.

when i want to be outside for fresh air and freedom i hunt groundhogs.    or i sit on my patio and watch the birds at the feeders  while i eat what other people prepare or cook on a grill and still feel refreshed.   but i don't have to 'wrestle' with small game that way.    i admit, to each his/her own.    there's nothing wrong with small game hunting.   it just isn't "whitetail deer" hunting in my opinion.   that, to me, is fresh air and freedom with a lot of reward all rolled into one.    a Handi rifle or a Model 700 does it for me.   

if you Really want fresh air and freedom, as dangerous as it is now, get a motorcycle and head west.   a motorcycle, a handgun, a bedroll, a boot knife, and a decent credit card will show you Real freedom....if you can handle all that excitement!   (just remember to say your prayers and don't try running from the Lord while you're relaxing.)   

take care,

ss'   

[qmastersgt]

Got 2 handi rifles, 2 700s, and 17 other long guns. I have 22 hand guns. I love using them. I love hunting. I wish we had ground hogs to shoot at . Looks like fun. Around here, we hunt wild hogs.
I sleep outside while reenacting. Last time it was 17 degrees F. We do everything like they did then.
 I used to ride bikes. Just too boring for me. 

[qmastersgt]

oh yeah, the Lord goes with me every where.