Author Topic: 338-06 vs 30-06 (Read 4176 times)

Lagavulin · « **on:** March 04, 2003, 12:32:59 PM »

Ok Im perplexed. Is there a huge difference between shooting a hand loaded 30-06 with 200-220 grain bullets compared with similar grain bullets in the 338-06? This wildcat really interests me, but Im stuck on how it could be that much better unless you go up to 250 grain bullets.
Anyone?

SeanD · « **Reply #1 on:** March 04, 2003, 02:51:03 PM »

I dont mean to be a smartass, but it shoots a bigger diameter bullet. It depends on what you use it for, but for elk class animals, i think there is a significant difference. It also shoot the same weight bullets faster than the 30 caliber, although not significantly.

Lagavulin · « **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2003, 04:13:34 PM »

That part is understandable. I'm basically trying to determine whether its worth the expense to modify an existing 30-06 since I dont want the full recoil of a 338 mag but would like more 'impact' when Moose hunting in a Grizzly area. I also shoot a 7mm but feel under gunned in this regard. I'm open for some options here. :roll:

Advocate · « **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2003, 06:15:38 AM »

The 225/230 Grain bullet in the .338-06 at 2,600 fps is just a little slower than the 180 grain .308 bullet in the 30-06. It makes a bigger hole and hits harder. The 250 grain .338 bullet in the .338-06 gets approximately the same velocity as the 220 grainer in the .30-06. Bigger heavier bullets are the advantage of the .338-06. People who use the .338-06 really rave about its effectiveness and consider it better than the '06 for heavier game. It probably is.

Lagavulin · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2003, 10:49:16 AM »

Thanks for the info!

Now I just have to find someone in BC Canada to rebarrel for me.

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2003, 04:52:25 PM »

I would think the 338-06 would have an advantage over the 30/06 on big moose and bear, if those aren't in your plans, I would be content with 30 cal. The 30/06 will handle deer, sheep, goats, smallish moose, caribou and black bear just fine and do it with a bit flatter trajectory. Going after the bruisers though, the 338 cal is very nice to have.

Just my warped way of thinking. However, if the 338/06 is under your skin, you'll never be satisfied until you try it. I've got the 318 Westley Richards under my skin, it pretty much duplicates 338/06 performance and I already have a 338 Win Mag that I love. It's an itch that I have resolved to scratch though.

Smokey · « **Reply #6 on:** March 05, 2003, 06:25:23 PM »

In his book, "Hunt Elk" Jim Zumbo claims that the .30-06 is his favorite rifle for elk. He acknowledges that there are many more that hit harder and will doi so at longer ranges but he maintains that the 06 is plenty good enough for elk. Aditionally, the 06 is an extremely popular caliber out west and has, alomng with the .270, probably accounted for more elf than all the magnums combined. Having said all that, I toyed with the idea of rebarreling my Sako 75 in .30-06 to .338-06 but just couldn't get past the idea that, for all the expense required, I wouldn't be gaining all that much bottom line effectiveness...but that's just me So, what do I do to "save money?" I launch a project to build up a Mauser M48 into a .358 Winchester! It'll shoot the heavier bullets, make big holes, and won't tempt me to shoot farther than my skills. Heck, just do what feels right and have fun!

the rifleman · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2003, 08:57:02 PM »

Quote from: Lagavulin

Thanks for the info!

Now I just have to find someone in BC Canada to rebarrel for me.

You could probably arrange any rebarreling thru Italian Sporting goods, in Vancouver. There is also a gunsmith named Bill Crosby, that could be reached thru the Vancouver Gun Club, that might be able help.

I had thought about the .35 Whelen as a possible wildcat, for a 30-06 conversion, but since have read nothing but praise of the .338-06 and I think I would opt for that instead of the Whelen.. Good luck!

Lagavulin · « **Reply #8 on:** March 08, 2003, 03:02:52 PM »

Thanks for all your help!

Rummer · « **Reply #9 on:** May 04, 2003, 05:48:54 PM »

In my own limited experience the .338-06 is great. My father had one built on an mauser action about 20 years ago. I used it this past deer season and took two whitetails with it. The bullet used was a hornady 200 gr flatpoint, which I believed was actually designed for the 33 winchester. By taking the 33 winchester bullets and driving them at .338-06 velocities you get rapid expansion (without sacrificing penetration). The end result is that the deer just fall over dead.

OOBuckshot · « **Reply #10 on:** May 04, 2003, 06:36:50 PM »

How did we ever get along when the 30-06 was the top of the line? :eek: OO

Butler · « **Reply #11 on:** May 04, 2003, 06:56:40 PM »

Yukon Jack..What do you mean by "smallish moose".A calf??? I have never really seen a smallish moose and all the ones I have shot had no problem buckling and falling over from my 30/06.I guess they must have been smallish.

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #12 on:** May 04, 2003, 07:07:44 PM »

Smallish moose, kind of an oxymoron, isn't it? By smallish I meant something like a spike or forkhorn. Most places I hunt up here have the "spike, fork or 50" regulation. You can shoot a spike bull, forkhorn or anything with a greater than 50" inside spread. Included also are the moose with 3 or more brow tines.

While a spike or forkhorn moose is still a fair sized animal, after they get over 50", they are just downright huge!! I guess smallish is a relative term for moose.

I didn't mean to imply the 30/06 won't kill a huge moose, it will, I've seen it happen. I'd guess more moose have fallen to the 30/06 than all the magnums put together, but I still prefer something will a little bigger diameter and proper bullet construction for something in the 1500 lb range, especially when it stands over 6 feet at the shoulder. That's just me, many like the '06 for big moose just fine and it does a great job. I like my 338 Win Mag, though.

Butler · « **Reply #13 on:** May 04, 2003, 07:18:04 PM »

Moose is a draw in most areas in alberta.Ihave taken a few nice ones over the years .My father swears by his .338 and I saw one taken by my great uncles .358 Norma in 1983 that was literally blown off his feet.It was spectacular to see ..Just need to find a way to bring a .338 into the house and convince my wife i had it for years before we got married;-)

gunnut69 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 05, 2003, 05:00:47 AM »

We shot 2 moose in Ontario in the mid 70's. A cow and a calf. Both were shot in an old burn and with a 30-06 using 180 grain Nosler partitions. We recovered 1 bullet of 4. All traversing right rear to left front of both beasts. A bull would have been just as dead.. as any of the shots would have reached the heart/lung area. The range was under a hundred yards though..

Muddyboots · « **Reply #15 on:** May 05, 2003, 07:56:43 AM »

OK, let's really stoke this up. If you were referencing a 7 MM Mag in your opening line, I would rather shoot the 7 RM over either the 338/06 or 30-06. The 7 RM has the horsepower to get it done without the recoil of the 338 WM. There is plenty of documentaiton to show a 7 RM will out penetrate a 30-06 and likely the 338/06 for variety of reasons. I shoot a 175 partition out of my Ruger No. 1 at 2950 fps which is serious medicine for moose, elk etc. Every elk shot in the group was with a 7 RM with complete penetration and they all didn't go far. The 7 RM gets a bad rap from lots of folks who try to shoot lighter bullets on large animals. The 160 or 175 partition will drop any elk or moose cleanly and generally the 7RM is known for accuracy. Let the fun begin......

Zachary · « **Reply #16 on:** May 05, 2003, 08:08:14 AM »

Well considering that the 6.5x55 (which is almost identical to the .260) with those long 140 grain bullets have accounted for hundreds of moose in the Scandinavian countries, who's to say that the 7mm Rem Mag with the 175 grain bullets couldn't do a better job? As such, although I believe that the 30-06 and .338 are excellent choices for moose, no one can say that they are necessarily better than the 7mm Rem mag.

Zachary

OOBuckshot · « **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2003, 03:09:47 PM »

Why is it that I never hear anyone say that a 45-70 is a good moose gun? Looks like to me that a gun which dropped American bison would be just as effective on moose or elk. I think we may have given up some of our skills as hunter/stalkers and rely on long range weapons. I don't know. I'm just setting here watching a beautiful sun set thinking about things. It seems that we are all consumed by the idea of killing the biggest, longest, heaviest what ever. I think the boys at the advertisement agencies have feed us a line and we took it hook, line, rod, reel, and boat. You can't just go fishing or hunting any more. You have to have this boat that line or an ATV. A 30-06 is not enough gun anymore. An old side by side shotgun isn't good enough. Nope, Park Av. says you need a two to three thousand dollar shotgun. You got to look good in the field. The gun has to look good. You can't shoot clays with a field gun, it has to be open choked and ported which makes it useless to hunt birds. We don't have the skills to stalk to with in a hundred or two hundred yards to get within range of our .270, 250 savage, or 30-06. We can stand in one county and shoot a target in the next with our supper intercontinental plasma death ray weapon. I think we miss a lot when we depend on these trappings rather than out skills as a hunter/ stalker. In the hands of a hunter, a 30-06 is enough gun to kill anything in North America. Likewise, a cane pole with good Eagle Claw hooks and can of worms will catch you all the fish you can eat.

Before you get the wrong idea, I fell for the advertisement line. I have the "right" boots, vest, hunting pants, shotguns and knives. I never fell for the magnum line in either shotguns or rifles. The 30-06 is my heavy rifle and 2 3/4" 12ga. my heaviest load and I get by. Well it was a pretty sunset.

OO

new snake owner · « **Reply #18 on:** May 10, 2003, 03:44:01 AM »

Well said! :grin:

WyoHunter · « **Reply #19 on:** May 27, 2003, 10:58:38 AM »

I own a .30-06 and a .338-06 and use both. I use the .338-06 for elk and moose when I can draw a tag. Both my rifles are custom stocked pre-64 M70 Winchesters. The .338-06 is an '06 rebored to .338 caliber with no other changes. I shoot 210 Nosler Partitions at a chronographed 2805 fps from the .338-06. Other than the recoil and obvious muzzle energy difference there isn't much. Trajectory is pretty close to being the same as a 180 .30 caliber Nosler Partiton out of the .30-06. I get excellent penetration and shoot through most of my elk and the moose in my avatar. I'm holding the .338-06 in the picture. I have nothing but good to say about the .338-06! :wink:

SeanD · « **Reply #20 on:** May 27, 2003, 12:42:51 PM »

Muddyboots/
what are the variety of reasons? The documentation from penetration tests i have seen show the opposite, the 7mm mag penetrates less. Which seems to agree with common knowledge that faster bullets penetrate less than slower ones (within reason of course). Not trying to be diffficult, id just like to read some of that documentation.

Paul H · « **Reply #21 on:** May 27, 2003, 01:07:10 PM »

The problem with small bores, of which the 7mm hails is to gain penetration, one has to sacrifice the dia of the wound channel. You can either go with a lightly constructed bullet that will produce a good wound channel, at the cost of penetration, or a tougher bullet with the loss of wound channel dia. The smaller wound channels and especially entrance/exit wounds do not produce reliable blood trails for tracking animals. Not all animals drop at the shot.

Medium bores of which the 338 hails provide both decent wound channel due to bullet dia, and penetration due to bullet weight. I would much rather shoot a heavier bullet at moderate velocities and limit my range then hope a small bore high velocity round will work in all situations. I prefer to have enough gun for the rare occasions things don't go right then just enough gun for ideal situations, but not enough when things go wrong.

Muddyboots · « **Reply #22 on:** May 27, 2003, 02:12:50 PM »

Sean D:
The "tests" were observations made in an article written I believe by Craig Boddington (not sure) in one of the trade mags. I will look for it in my pile of "gotta keep" articles. Basically, the observations were made on the heavy weighted bullets (160 and up) on elk size animals that he personally or observed being shot with the 7 RM. My own experience with the 7 RM with a group of 4 other 7 users on elk is the same. The opposite is true for the 7 RM using light weight bullets that blow up on animals in relatively close range (inside 100 yards). I have great load (0.5 MOA) for the Hornady 139 SST's for my Number 1 but they cruise along at 3400 fps (that's correct chonographed) and are worthless inside 100 yards or possibly even 150 yards due to blow up potential. I've discussed this at great length with Hornady and they have same conclusion. I won't use less than 160 gr bullets out of the 7 RM unless I knew for sure the shots would be long (antelope or bean field type hunting). Just think about it, same weight bullet in smaller diameter at faster velocity will generate greater initertia when striking an animal = penetration. Let's say you can drive a 06 180 to 2800 fps (nasty pressure likely), the 7 RM will drive a 175 to 2950. Better BC and SD as well. The question is always larger frontal impact versus penetration. I prefer the slight edge in penetration that the 7 RM provides and truthfully, I like the 7 RM over the 06 only for elk and only with 160 and above bullets. The 7 RM gets bad rap from the light weight bullets at close range but really shines with the heavier ones. Most folks don't like to use them due to recoil but I grew up shooting slug guns off the bench in upstate NY so anything less feels good. Comes down to what you can shoot and believe in when you pull the trigger. If you look at all three calibers out to 250 yards the whole dsicussion is a "so what"! But it is sure fun to theorize ourselves to these great lengths. Look at how many posts on this one topic. If this isn't fun, then it is time to call in the dogs.

TopGun · « **Reply #23 on:** May 27, 2003, 03:23:36 PM »

Sorry guys, I just had to get in on this one. I have the articles of refeence. There are three in fact. One is an Outdoor life article, one is an American Hunter Article, and the other is by Finn Aagard(?) that was resurrected while teh 7mm remingto magnum was in development. The tests showed that the 175gr 7MM slug from a Remington 7RM out penetrated eveything tested. Karamanjo Bell of African fame concluded through all his kills that teh 7mm heavies (in a 57mm case) was the best penetrator in Elephants skulls. IMHO--as far a .308 wound channel being much larger than a .284 is a moot point. Personally, I've always been a Keith (over 30cal) fan, but do see the merits of the 7mm Rem Mag. I also have a 30'06 that easily does 2900 fps with 180's from an Interarms MK-X with no high pressure signs what so ever. It is from a 24" tube though. The only 7MM's I have is 7x30 waters and 7x57. I also use a 243, 6.5JDJ and a 6.5x55. I'm not a big magnum fan for my hunting. I used to no recoil.

Muddyboots · « **Reply #24 on:** May 27, 2003, 04:00:43 PM »

Top Gun,
What bullet are you using in 06 to reach 2900? I've got a Encore with 26" bull barrel that does well with Hornady's 180 SP's but only up to 2825 or so. Partitions - forget it. BT's about 2800 before pressure starts. Just curious on bullet to see if I can tweak a bit more out of the Encore.

I agree on the recoil but I am lucky (?) to be of the larger stature so I can absorb a bit more without getting knocked about. At 6'5 and 265, the recoil isn't as bad as for some normal size folks. For once, the size helps. Except when trying to buy a car or truck or clothes or length of pull, etc. I've got a great load for 12 ga. 450 gr. slugs if anyone is interested. 5 of these off the bench and even a 338 WM feels nice and smooth...HA!

TopGun · « **Reply #25 on:** May 28, 2003, 01:12:11 PM »

180 Sierra's spitzer boat tails and Nosler Balistic tips, over IMR 4350 For some reason, I get pressure signs early with Partitions. I use these two exclusively. I haven't experimented with Barnes yet but I will. I get 3490 with 180 Barnes from my 30-378 Weatherby. This rifle is the reason I really don't have to puch my standard calibers. I don;t like shooting 12ga slugs and dislike 10ga even more. My Weatherby actually kicks less than my Ruger M77RSI with heavy .308 handloads, It rattles your teeth.

Muddyboots · « **Reply #26 on:** May 29, 2003, 02:43:18 PM »

TopGun,
Will try the Sierra's in 180. The BT's clocked just about 2875 so about same as yours. Some room left in load but prefer not having to push brass. I use to shoot the Sierra 165 HPBT's years ago and don't remember why I stopped. Shot great and dropped everything in tracks. Another one of those gotta try different better bullets when old reliable worked great.
Muddyboots

hillbilly · « **Reply #27 on:** May 31, 2003, 05:55:49 AM »

great topics but I have a question or rather a request. I just picked up a Ruger m77 in 338 win mag and have worked up a load using 180gr Nosler Ballistic tips, and a powder refered to as 47SL, I got it from a dealer in Ontario. It's similar to H414 but burns a little hotter (approx. 15%) this load generates 3200fps in my rifle with no obvious excessive pressure sign. I plan to use this load for whitetail, mules, and wolveds perhaps coyotes and p-dogs if the mood srtikes me. but now I'm trying to work up a load for 250gr Noslaer part. with the same powder (the fewer variables the better)for elk, moose, and black bear. so if anyones got aload or an idea drop me a line

Downwindtracker2 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 28, 2003, 06:37:27 PM »

A 338.06 is bit short on horsepower,by the Nosler manual using 225gr bullets,10grains of powder gains 300f/s (338WM) but the next 10grains of powder (340Wea) gains only 100f/s.Moose hunters like rounds that drop the moose nice and close to the road. Fat bullets at moderate velocities. A 30.06 is more of a all-rounder. Bell Leeper did a great job rebarreling a tired 30.06 FN-Husky for me. A better fit in that rifle than a magnum.