Can't decide on my first big bore, 45/70 or 405 Win

[persistentprogrammer]

Hi I've only owned a 30-06, 308 Win, and 350 Rem Mag. I'm looking to get a big bore for my T/C Encore and it looks like a 45/70 is the best option. I had a 350 rem Mag barrel and I hated trying to chamber the belted cases, they'd almost always hang up on the extractor, so absolutely no more belted mags for my Encore.

I could read for a month on reloading data and trajectories for the 45/70, but I think I'd be spinning my wheels, so I'm coming here for direct opinions on it.

1) Can I still use my Nikon 3-9 BDC with the 45/70 trajectory, i.e. will the 45/70 drop follow my BDC?
2) What size groups can I expect to achieve at 100-200 yards?
3) What reload data would I chose, I'm guessing use the ones listed for "Modern firearm"?
4) What bullet is getting the best results for you, what should I look for in Ballistic Coefficients?
5) Is it worth considering the 405 Win to get predicable trajectory out to 200 yards?

[efremtags]

I believe the BDC recticles are designed for  velocity/Bal. Coef. window. The 45/70 is likely outside of that window. The muzzleloader version may be close enough to be practicle out to 250 yards.

The 45/70 handload data from any source will have 40kpsi and 50kpsi range data for modern rifles. You can use either range in the You should not have a problem developing MOA ammo or better.

Accuracy will be more dependent on the gun than the round. This is an inherently accurate round. I load REM 405SP and Beartooth 425WFN. They shoot to the same point within 1" of eachother. Both are very accurate and inexpensive to shoot..You can take advantage of some ammo us lever loaders can't use in a SS.

[Lone Star]

What are you intending to shoot with the rifle?  The .45-70 has a wide range of bullets available, to suit different velocity/recoil windows and different game.  The .405 is extremely limited in bullet choices - if the few available bullets suit your needs, then okay.  Recoil with top "Ruger-level" .45-70 loads will be too much for most shooters to enjoy in a light Encore.  Stick with "Trapdoor" to "Marlin" level loads and you will have plenty of power for anything out to 200 yards with tolerable recoil.  I've taken deer out to 225 yards with my .45-70s - all it takes is marksmanship, the bullet will kill just fine.  Accuracy will be plenty once a load the barrel likes is found - the best loads in my various .45-70s are between 1 moa and 2 moa for three-shot groups.

For deer the 300 Remington, Hornady, Nosler and Speer bullets will work fine, the latter two for highest velocities.  For larger game, stick to the 350 Hornady or 350 Speer.  The various 400-grain bullets are softer and penetrate less than the lighter bullets - a fortunate thing giving us better velocity and less recoil with deeper penetration.  Don't worry about BCs, out to 200 yards there is little difference in trajectory or killing power.  IME the flat nosed bullets give quicker game reaction to the shot than round or pointed bulets anyway.

To me the .405 is an interesting cartridge with an interesting history, but as a practical hunting cartridge today it comes in well behind the much older .45-70.


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[jro45]

I didn't have any problem choising my first big boar. It was a 375 H&H with a brake. My next big boar is a 416 with out a brake, And the one I just recently purched Is the CZ 458 American Safari Lott.

[StrawHat]

A good way to learn about a cartridge and what it will do is to decide on a bullet weight and shoot it.  A lot.

In the 45-70, there is a lot to choose from, 300, 330, 350, etc, etc.

Pick one and learn it. 

In the 405 WCF, Winchester wisely choose on standard bullet weight, 300 grain.  And they ran it at about 2200 fps.

Not too shabby.  When it was introduced, before all those who never shot it said the buttplate would cut your arm off, it was considered to be too BIG for North American game.

I have the Lyman bullet mold, 412263 and am considering having it hollowpointed for some variety and because I like the Gould bullet in the 45-70.

The one thing the 405 lacked was a variety of rifles chambered for it.  Winchester made the 1895 lever gun and a couple of bolt rifles on the M70 action, Ruger makes the single shot.  In England there were a half dozen double and single barreled rifles built.  With the exception of some custom bolt guns, that is it.

The 45-70 is available in everything except a semi auto, unless you count the Gatling.

[Lone Star]

If I limited myself to a single bullet weight in the .45-70 I'd have abandoned it decades ago instead of keeping a minium of three around for over 35 years.  This is one of the cartridge's attractions and what makes it so versatile.  300s for general shooting, plinking and deer hunting, 350s for almost anything else, 400-500 cast for BP shooting.....I cannot for the life of me see an advantage in limiting bullet weights.  But to each his own I guess. 

[Two401Pm]

Does anyone here shoot the Sharps rifles?  I like the 405 gr. bullet and pretty well stick with it its good for a few yards. 1,000 yds or so
nice tall vernier tang sight.

[JoeRobbins]

I just made my choice and it was the 45/70 in the encore. I put one of the Burris Short Mag 2-7 balliis-plex scopes on top and went shooting. My load of 3031 and 405 Cast Performance FLNGCs gave me a three shot group that made a great little cloverleaf design. I did try other loads with Varget and Trail Boss. Bullets were lead 300s, 350s, and the 405s. I also tried the speer 400 soft nose jacketed. All were accurate enough for hunting, but the one really shined.

My next outing will be to test the ballistic plex markings at various ranges. I plan to shoot point of impact at 100 and hope the marks will carry me out to at least 200.

Joe

[Dixie Dude]

Can you get a .35 Whelen with the TC rifle?  It is the same as the 350 RM as far as ballistics go, but in a 30-06 size case.  Gives you more range than the 45-70.  Just a thought even if late. 

[Lloyd Smale]

brass is alot harder to find for a 405 and so are molds and bullets. Its a dammed good round if you can scrape the stuff together but a 444 will do anything a 405 will and a 4570 is a step up in power.

[petemi]

If you were after my .45-70 and my wife, you'd have my wife first.  (She'd better not see this!!!)  I shoot mostly the 325 gr. Hornady Leverevolutions in my Handi Rifle.  I love the ballistics and accuracy.  I'll probably reload with a pointed bullet of the same weight and about 1800 fps.  The Hornadys work in the wind at 300 yards if you correct a little.  It blows here all the time, so it is almost second nature to lean into the wind a little.

To answer question 5, the .45-70's trajectory is totally predictable way beyond 200 yards.  Yeah, it shoots like a rainbow, but it doesn't take a heck of a lot of work to to add some lead to the pot of gold at the end.  It has proved, to me, to be very stable and accurate. Good luck, I think you did the right thing.  Pete

[quickdtoo]

Hornady brass is readily available for the 405 from many sources, so that's no biggy, but if you want pointy bullets, you got no choice unless you go with a custom bullet, there's just
the Hornady 300gr. Northfork used to make them but they're no longer available. If you want to shoot cast, you might as well go with the 45-70, you're SOL on pointy bullets for the .444 too since that was mentioned.  If you just want something different, the 405 is a fun choice, I have all three,  one each of the 405 and 444, but I have three 45-70s. 

Tim

[dpe.ahoy]

Gotcha Tim, 444 Hornady Leverevolution, purdy lil red tip and all pointy too.   DP.

[quickdtoo]

Pointy ammo, but not bullets, flex tips aren't available to handloaders.

Tim