Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?

[Swampman]

The Remington 405 grain factory load is more than enough for anything in North America, and 99% of anything in Africa.

[Coyote Hunter]

The Remington 405 grain factory load is more than enough for anything in North America, and 99% of anything in Africa.

Use those loads if you like, I won’t.

Comparing the Remington 405g load (1130fps, .281 BC) to my 350g North Fork load (2183fps, BC .232):

Muzzle velocity:
1330fps = 405g Remington
2183fps = 350g North Fork

Muzzle Energy:
1767fpe = 405g Remington
3703fpe = 350g North Fork

Zero / Maximum Point Blank Range (6” diamater target)
114yds/135yds = 405g Remington
174yds/204yds = 350g North Fork

200 Yard Trajectory/Energy:
-20.8”/1015fpe =
-2.6”/1936fpe =

250 Yard Trajectory/Energy:
-43.0”/937fpe =
-10.3”/1634fpe =

300 Yard Trajectory/Energy:
-73.5”/873fpe
-22.3”/1386fpe

Perhaps where you hunt 200 yard shots are a rare exception.  Not so where I hunt.  The 6x6 bull elk I took with the .45-70 was at a lasered 213 yards.  The ballistic calculator says the drop was 4.5” and retained energy was 1840fpe.  Had I been using a 405g Remington load the drop would have been 26.6” with only 990fpe retained. The deer I shot the day before, also with the .45-70 North Fork load, was taken at 197 lasered yards.   A friend shot a grizzly with a 350g North Fork I had sent him.  The range was 246 yards.  While I don’t know the load specifics, if it had been my load the drop would have been 9.9” with 1662fpe retained while the 405g Remington would have dropped 40.4” and retained 944fpe.

Enjoy the 405’s if you want.  I have a pile of them I use for plinking but for elk hunting I’m reaching for my 350g North Fork loads.  And if I ever go to Africa with my Marlin .45-70  I’ll probably take Garrett’s 460g Hammerheads or my 420g Cast Performance handloads.

The Remington 405g load definitely does NOT do 99% of what I want a .45-70 load to do.   50% would be more like it.

[Swampman]

I guess hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions)of buffalo were wiped out by this inadequate loading just by accident.  I'm glad people hot rod the .45-70 Marlin.  It helps put thousands of them on the used gun market that have barely been fired.

I broke the wrist on my original 1895 loading above factory specs, and I won't be doing it again.

[Coyote Hunter]

I guess hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions)of buffalo were wiped out by this inadequate loading just by accident.  I'm glad people hot rod the .45-70 Marlin.  It helps put thousands of them on the used gun market that have barely been fired.

I broke the wrist on my original 1895 loading above factory specs, and I won't be doing it again.

No one has said the .45-70 original loads won’t kill things – even big things. The Sandy hook trials proved that at 2 miles the .45-70 could penetrate a wooden plank and bury the bullet a foot deep in the sand.  The bullet drop was a bitch, though.

As a historical note, it is my understanding that the professional buffalo hunters generally chose larger cartridges than the .45-70 – the .50’s or longer .45s.  That said, I’m sure a fair number were killed with a .45-70 and a lot were probably killed with even smaller cartridges.  It is also a fair bet that untold numbers were undoubtedly wounded or required multiple shots.  Many elk have been killed with a .243 Win and even .22 centerfires, neither of which I would choose for myself.  The fact that something CAN be done certainly doesn’t mean that everyone must do so.

I’m also glad people “hot rod” the .45-70, although 40,000 CUP pressures are hardly “hot” in modern firearms like the Marlin.  IMHO the 40,000 CUP loads increase the usefulness of the .45-70 by a considerable degree.  Many folks would agree with that assessment, as indicated by the people that use such loads.  If an individual doesn’t care for such loads they are completely free not to use them. 

By the way, I got one of those used .45-70 Marlins.  Made in 2000 and it became mine in late 2002 for the paltry sum of $249.95.  It’s a gem.  It’s not just the 40,000 CUP loads that cause folks to sell .45-70 Marlins, however.  Some folks don’t reload and simply don’t want to put up with the rainbow trajectory of 28,000 CUP factory loads. For such folks the “useless” .444 is often a better choice.

If 28,000 CUP loads work for you, great.  They don’t work for me and if that was all that was available I’d hunt with something else.

[Swampman]

The .444 is a good .30-30/35 Remington class cartridge due to the very poor bullet selection in the .429 caliber.  Like the .450 it's almost impossible to find ammo for in backwoods locations.  The .45-70 ammo is very common most everywhere because everyone loves it.  Rather than selecting the obscure .444 or .450 I'd rather use my .30-30.

"Gun lovers have their own guns and it is not well to argue with them. For many years I carried restocked Springfields, Mausers and others. Now I carry a 30-30 Winchester carbine with sling. The much improved cartridge in this weapon will stop a moose or a bear without trouble. The gun is small, light, has good balance for carrying, and is convenient. For safety the sling is looped around a thwart in a canoe and around a cross bar or a lash rope on a dog slead"

Calvin Rutstrum

[Coyote Hunter]

The .444 is a good .30-30/35 Remington class cartridge due to the very poor bullet selection in the .429 caliber.  

Poor bullets?  Like these?
200g, 225g Barnes XPB
250g Nosler Partition
240g, 280g, 300g Swift A-Frame
300g Speer Uni-Cor
200g, 240g, 250g, 265g, 275g, 300g Hawk Flat Point
225g, 275g, 300g, 320g Cast Performance hardcast
180g, 200g, 240g, 300g Oregon Trail Laser-Cast hardcast
280g, 330g Jae-Bok Young LBT
240g, 250g, 260g, 265g, 280g, 290g, 300g, 325g, 330g, 335g, 355g, 405g Beartooth Bullets hardcast
Hardcast in various weights from a variety of other manufacturers – too many to list

Those are some of the very best bullet styles available for ANY cartridge.  “Poor bullet selection”?  I don’t think so.  

Of course most people find JSP’s from Speer and Hornady and Sierra, etc, work just fine for non-dangerous game.

Factory ammo is admittedly somewhat limited but the Hornady LeverEvolution and Light Mag loads are both pretty decent loads and even standard Remington 240g JSP loads are adequate for most tasks – certainly no worse than the 240g JSPs I’ve been shooting from my .44 Mag for the last 20+ years.

Like the .450 it's almost impossible to find ammo for in backwoods locations.  The .45-70 ammo is very common most everywhere because everyone loves it.  

As a handloader the question of ammo availability is moot to me, as it is with many others.  That said  .444 ammo is as available as many other cartridges.  If the availability of factory ammo everyplace they might go was a major factor in people's choice of cartridges they would have very limited choices.  The funny thing is, lots of people hunt with a .444 - I guess they figured out how to overcome the ammo situation, whatever it might be.

Rather than selecting the obscure .444 or .450 I'd rather use my .30-30.

Have fun.  I’m taking my .30-30 elk hunting in 3 days.  Stuffed with 170g Partitions.

Interestingly, at 2192fps (Nosler 5th) the .30-30 retains only 1001fpe at 200 yards while the “useless” .444 with a 250g Nosler Partition at 2289fps (Nosler 5th again) retains 1380fpe with a virtually identical trajectory (less than 3” for both when zeroed for a maximum rise of 3”).  There is no doubt in my mind which one is the better choice for elk and it isn’t the .30-30.  

[Swampman]

When you're ammo doesn't make it to the place you are hunting, the availability of ammo is no longer a moot point.  You'd be better off with Remington Core-Locts in your .30-30.  The .30-30 is an excellent cartridge and the better choice.

[Coyote Hunter]

When you're ammo doesn't make it to the place you are hunting, the availability of ammo is no longer a moot point.  You'd be better off with Remington Core-Locts in your .30-30.  The .30-30 is an excellent cartridge and the better choice.

Just one more reason to take a backup rifle when you're going some place remote and to separate your ammo into different pieces of luggage if you're flying or will otherwise be separated from your luggage during the trip.  And to send ammo ahead if possible.  Solves the same problem for other cartridges, too. 

"Better" is a individual value judgment that you are wholly incapable of making for anyone else.  It is based on many factors - of which the availability of factory ammo is only one and often an unimportant one at that.  To flatly state the .30-30 is "better" is ludicrous - although it may well be for you, your situation and your hierarchy of values.

If hunting in grizz territory up around Yellowstone I'd much rather have a .444 than a .30-30.  For hunting elk here in Colorado I'd still rather have a .444 than a .30-30 as my primary weapon even though no grizz are around.  Having shot a few pigs with 12 gauge slugs, I have to say I'd rather have a .444 than a .30-30 for them as well.  Black bears?  Again the .444 would be my choice between the two.  Moose or grizz?  The .444 would be my hands down choice over the .30-30.  There are obviously a lot of hunters who feel as I do - they're the ones who own and hunt with .444's.

That's not to denigrate the .30-30.  I think it is an excellent cartridge and I look forward to using mine for elk and deer in the next few days. But it can't keep up with the .444 just as the .444 can't keep up with modern loads for the .45-70.

[300winman]

The 45/70 is great cartridge, but that does not mean the 444 and the 450 marlin are bad ones.  The all have their place amongst shooters, and all have the ability to take any game here in North America.  Its more about personal preference, like a 308vs 30/06, 270 vs 280, 243 vs 6mm,etc.  I do not believe in the ammo availability argument, as I have seen ammo in for the 444 and 450 in most gun shops from here in Portland, OR to Coldwater, MI.(Have driven many trips to my property in MI and have stopped many places along the way.)  How boring would the discussions be here if everyone here only shot a 30/30 or 45/70.  The variety of cartridges for the shooter makes things more interesting.  I even like hearing people talk how much they love their 32-20(which is still available in in a marlin 1894).  We all like to here how much people love their favorite cartridges, but we do not like to hear our favorite cartridge is "obscure".  Variety in cartridges is a good thing, it gives us more to talk about!!!

[Greenhunter]

IMHO I like the 45-70 for its nostalgia, but if we are talking factory loads, the .444 is ballistically superior.
If you reload, it's a moot point as you can make one do what the other will do.

[McLernon]

The 45-70 is the best for all the good reasons given and just because.

Mc

[McLernon]

The 45-70 can be loaded up to kill anything in North America and it can be loaded down to plink like a 'BB gun".

Yes I am biased but really the truth of the matter is that the 45-70 is the best--no need for a 30-30, no need for a big magnum, you get it all in one cartridge---the 45-70.

Mc

[Swampman]

I recently bought a .444.  I like it.  I will point out that the ammo is twice as expensive as .45-70 ammo around here anyway.

My .444



My .45-70s

[McLernon]

Well I guess it's settled then for all time: the 45-70 is the best

Mc

[Mikey]

McLernon:  the 45-70 might be the best of the 45 bores, but I always felt you could do more with one of the 444s.  Must just be preference............... Mikey.

[McLernon]

Yea Mikey, it's just personal preference for sure. I just have had so much fun plinking with my 45-70's that I love the round.

Mc

[Old Grizz]

I like the 45-70 only because that load has a good selection of different grains available with factory ammo and an excellent caliber for reloaders. Also, there isn't a critter in North America that round can't handle.  But like someone said, it's all personal preference. I own a 45-70, .444 and the .450 and when all is said and done, I like the 45-70 best.