H&R in 444 Marlin

[gaileyr]

Just bought A H&R in 444 Marlin cal. Installed a old (Denver made) Redfield 2 3/4X post & cross-hair scope. Zeroed at 3/4 inches high at 50 yards. Holds 3/4 to 1 inch groups at that range with Remington ammo. Was just wondering if anyone else on this site uses the H&R in 444. And if so how do they like it. My hunting buddies say I've made a big mistake choosing 444, should have bought it in 45-70. What's your thoughts on the subject.

[quickdtoo]

Welcome! I have one in camo lams, also have 3 H&R 45-70s and a 45-120, depends on whatcha wanta do with it, if you want to shoot big bullets, ther 45-70 has a big advantage, up to 720grs, .444 max is 405gr, but if you just deer hunting, either will work fine. The 45-70 has a big advantage if you shooting factory ammo. Best choice is BOTH!! 

Be sure to check out the FAQs and Help sticky, lots of good stuff in there to learn. 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,118881.msg1098392036.html#msg1098392036

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,120494.msg1098403886.html#msg1098403886

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,124487.msg1098436387.html#msg1098436387

[fernie]

gaileyr,

Tim's right on...lots of good info on this site.  Don't forget the big bore forum, too. 

In terms of power, and practically speaking, weight for weight roughly anything a 45-70 can do, so can a 444 - 1.58 cubic inches case capacity in both.  Some will argue minutae forever - forget them.  If you want to shoot heavier bullets, have a custom mold cut for you and cast lead.  You'll be ringing the gong with the rest.  I love my 45-70.  It has a rim, a huge selection of reloading items, and it's been around 100 years.  But the 444 has been here since '64 - it ain't a flash in the pan.  A friend uses his Marlin lever on moose - bang and the alotted 7.56 seconds and it's down.  The Handi is a great gun.  Start reloading...and you should be able to tighten that group up...sounds like an accurate gun to me already?  Maybe you'll become the bard of 444's?  Shoot the gun!  (But then again, maybe you should just throw it away...it's probably not any good anyway - before you do just PM me and I'll save you the trouble of driving to the dump ).

Doc

PS - I got a 2.5 post-crosshair on mine, too

[Foggy]

It sounds like a keeper to me. Go to the lbt section here tell Veral what you go t he can fix you up with a mold

[quickdtoo]

In terms of power, and practically speaking, weight for weight roughly anything a 45-70 can do, so can a 444 - 1.58 cubic inches case capacity in both. 

Doc, that's not true, the 45-70 has more capacity, 67gr water for the 444 and 72gr for the 45-70, so there's that much more room for more powder or a bigger bullet.

Tim

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=42

.444 MARLIN SPECIFICATIONS
 
Bullet Diameter:
 .430 in.
 
Max Overall Length:
 2.570 in.
 
Rifling Twist:
 1-in-20 in.
 
Rifling Lands:
 12
 
Case Capacity (est):
 67 gr. water
 
Primer Size:
 .210 in.
 
 
http://ammoguide.com/?catid=38

45-70 GOVERNMENTSPECIFICATIONS
 
Bullet Diameter:
 .458 in.
 
Max Overall Length:
 2.550 in.
 
Rifling Twist:
 1-in-20 in.
 
Rifling Lands:
 6
 
Case Capacity (est):
 72 gr. water
 
Primer Size:
 .210 in.
 

[fernie]

practically speaking

weight for weight

roughly

Ok, ok,

I give...ouch! 

Like I said,

if you don't want it,

just send it to me

and I'll suffer with it.



5 grains of water...

no wonder you're not getting any power out of it Tim, loadin it with water!? 



...next moose goes down I'll have to shoot it simultaneously with my friend and ask it before it dies which one really counted!?   

Doc

gaileyr - PLEASE PM ME TO ARRANGE SHIPMENT SOON!!!!!!!!!!

...course we could strain at gnats and talk about the better BC the .429 would have weight-for-weight...might get a whole 13 yards more out of the same energy at 200 yards?!?!


---444 - 4.53 divided by 2 x 3.14 x 2.225 = 1.58 cubic inches
---45-70 - 4.8 divided by 2 x 3.14 x 2.105 = 1.58 cubic inches
...could be 5 grains difference in base casting brass displacement

[quickdtoo]

The higher BC doesn't do much good if you can't put enough powder behind it, I've done the numbers, it ain't there with the .444 unless you load exceeding published data. The 444 is limited by levergun pressure limits, modern rifle 45-70 data goes to 50kcup compared to 44kcup for the 444. The 45-70 will do better with a 300gr bullet at any range with more down range energy, shooting flatter than any lighter bullet in the .444. Not that there's a big difference in what's laying on the ground after it's all said and done tho.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,127220.msg1098457265.html#msg1098457265

Try getting one of these for the .444.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,130161.msg1098479258.html#msg1098479258



Or these.

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21



http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

[fernie]

You're right Tim,  I apologize.

Doc

[quickdtoo]

No need to apologize Doc, this is a discussion forum, ya know.

Tim

[fernie]

…..mmmm

It took me a while...

15 July, 1995
Oberlin Archery Club Gun Range - Prairie Dog Creek Gun Range
Oberlin, KS

444 Marlin
300 gr. cast Lyman paper patch
52.5 gr H322
2101 fps

45-70
300 gr. Cast Lyman paper patch
59.5 gr H322
1933 fps

The 300 gr. cast bullet is more than enough to kill well any ungulate in the US.  I know that from experience.  I am also aware as to how much more powder you can pack into a 45-70.  I never said you couldn’t load the 45-70 with bigger bullets, nor push these bullets to higher levels.  Using H322 the 444 produces a very good hunting load, and even outstrips the 45-70.  Other powders produce the opposite result by a similar margin…I didn’t crunch the numbers on this, I've shot thousands of reloads through a chrony.  A 300 grain cast bullet traveling at 2100 fps will do fine on any deer, elk, or moose, at mid-range (up to 200 yards) which is what these calibers perform best at in the field, that’s really what this gentleman was asking, and which I or my partners have consistently done.

And no, your responses were not about having a discussion.  A discussion involves inquiry, like the gentleman did in regard to the potential of his 444.  But you, Tim, never inquired into why I would make the claim I did, did you?  No, this was not a discussion, this was you with your numbers.

Regards,

Doc

[bishopgrandpa]

On a lighter vane, I use a 444 with a 300 gr cast over H4198 for a softer load but still doing over 1700 fps and have several one shot kills on Adirondack whitetails. Love the 45-70 but wouldn't dismiss the 444 at all. Have fun with it.

[gaileyr]

Hey guys, I didn't mean to start a fight. I simply wanted to know (with normal factory loads) what the 45-70 has over 444 marlin in deer hunting . The 444 shoots flatter with less recoil. So what's not to like about it. Other than factory ammo is a little hard to come by. Actually, I would not have considered buying the H&R in either cal. Except here in Mississippi the new ruling is any center-fire single shot rifle above 38 cal with exposed hammer and designed or produced before 1900 is legal during the Primitive Weapon deer season (approx 28 days of additional hunting per year). In addition to that this type of rifle is allowed in shotgun only areas of the state. So, with the purchase of the H&R in 444 I've almost become a one gun hunter. My 30-06, 30-30, 270, 6.5x55 Swed, 243, and Ithaca slug shotgun will likely become closet queens. Because of it's trajectory and recoil I doubt that would be the case if I had chosen the 45-70. But still my hunting buddies insist I made a mistake choosing the 444 over the 45-70. I begining to believe it's a case of "My bullet is bigger than your bullet".

[quickdtoo]

For your purposes and using factory ammo, the 444 is an excellent choice, you should be very happy with it, don't let your 45-70 buddies get to ya, just show em what the 444 can do.

Tim

[Mac11700]

The 444 is an excellent round...and I am quite sure you will like it a-lot...most do...The 444 vs the 45-70 debate has been going on for sometime...and most likely won't ever stop...It just goes to show you both are really well liked cartridges...   Here's some interesting reading for ya for the 444......http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/44...To achieve the best performance out of either the 444 or the 45-70...your either going to have to reload...or buy expensive factory ammo...but hey...no one says you have to shoot the expensive stuff all the time...Both are real  easy to reload for...and you should plan on taking it up if you haven't already...So...enjoy your 444...and don't worry too much about what your friends say...there won't be a whole lot of difference between the dead deer shot by theirs as compared to those shot by you......on a side note though...you will find the 444 has a lot of perceived recoil with the fastest & heaviest loads ...it's just the nature of these big bores to do this...So...you should pick up a nice Limbsaver recoil pad..and a shell holder for the butt stock so you can put some soft foam rubber under it for a cheek pad...It will make it better for you in the long run...and if it's still kicking hard...add either a mercury recoil reducer or lead shot in the butt stock hole...

Good Luck

Mac

[preventec47]

If you are a factory ammo shooter, the 444 is a lot more powerful than the
45/70 99 percent of time unless you are using custom  hi power 45/70 loads.
This is because all the ammo makers have to load ammo to be used in the
primitive and weak 45/70 trap door rifles.   Even the Handi Rifle and MArlin
lever actions cannot shoot the super hi power 45/70 loads with very hi
chamber pressures.   That is why Marlin came out with their  450.  Liability
considerations required a hi power 45/70 type cartridge that could not accidentially
be inserted into an older rifle that would explode.
What I like most about the 444 is the fact  that many many dozens of 44 pistol
bullets are available many of which are dirt cheap can be used in reloades. There
are very few  45/70 bullets and none are cheap.     Also if you like the idea of
a 45 caliber explosive fragmenting bullet in your hunting, just imagine the pistol
bullets that are designed to mushroom at 1000 fps hitting your prey at 2000 or more
fps,  I think there are 180 gr bullets in 44 that can be pushed to  the 2500 fps speeds
and maybe a little more. Thats talking super flat trajectories for a big bore out to 200
yards.

[quickdtoo]

gaileyr, since you're only shooting factory ammo, and you want the flattest shooting load, I'd try the Hornady Leverevolution ammo, it has great down range ballistics and shot equally well in mine when it was tested at the factory, as good as the 240gr Rem and 265gr Hornady factory loads.

Grafs has it on sale for $22.99 if you want the best price I've seen on it, I handload and that's an attractive price even for me!!

http://www.grafs.com/grafs/search/product/166592

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=ballistics/popup&product_sku=82744

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=fb577ee8162f6ff887978d1774ddea4f&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=1035565254fcc48f6f9ed8b329416eae




preventec47, You'd be incorrect on most counts there, most of the Garrett and all of the Buffalo Bore ammo are made for the Handi, the Garrett  500gr and 540gr are likely too long to chamber in the typical short throat of H&R 45-70s, but will work in a Handi if the throat is long enough to chamber it since it can be loaded beyond that of the 1895 levergun, the Handi is factory chambered 500S&W if you care to do a little SAAMI pressure research on it, the 1895 Marlin isn't. Buffalo Bore uses bore rider 500gr bullets, that's how they allow the use of the bigger bullets.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#4570

All .45-70 Magnum loadings are intended for use in the following firearms:
All Marlin Model 1895 variations made since 1972
Browning Model 1885 and 1886
New England Arms Handi-Rifle
Ruger #1 and #3
T/C Encore
Shiloh, Christian and Pedersoli Sharps
New Production Winchester 1886

 

The 500 gr. load uses a dual diameter, bonded core bullet by Alaska Bullet Works. The bullet diameter in front of the crimp groove is .449 inch, while measuring .457 inch on the shank.  This dual diameter allows for reliable chambering in rifles with short or no throats.  This is a non-expanding Full Metal Jacket bullet designed for the deepest penetration on the largest game animals.  This load is safe for use in any firearm designed for the other BBA .45/70 MAG. LEVER GUN cartridges.

As for .458" bullet availability, Midway has about 100 listed and they're all rifle bullets, made for rifle velocities, the same can't be said for the .429-430" bullets. I don't think there are any "cheap" bullets any more, they're all getting expensive, but the plated bullets or bulk cast bullets are available for both the 444 and 45-70 and are relatively inexpensive compared to jacketed bullets.

http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=1&Categoryid=7290&categorystring=9315***652***19785***9016***

http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=1&Categoryid=7562&categorystring=9315***652***19785***9016***
 
You can try those 180gr Sierras at 2500fps if you like, but you won't like the terminal performace at any range much past 150yds, the poor BC of .130-.140 isn't much better than that of a round ball, sheds velocity very fast, energy drops below the accepted 1000ft/lb level just past 150yds.

Tim

Trajectory for Sierra Bullets .4295 dia. (44 cal) 180 gr. JHC at 2500 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.13   0.125   0.14   0.14   0.14
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1300   900   900   900
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2500.0   2497.6   2.00   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2338.9   2186.1   1.87   -0.18   -0.47   0.0   0.031016533
50   2183.8   1905.8   1.75   -0.76   0.17   0.0   0.064202244
75   2034.6   1654.2   1.63   -1.8   0.35   0.0   0.099783946
100   1891.5   1429.8   1.51   -3.36   0.0   0.0   0.138016804
125   1755.1   1231.0   1.40   -5.53   -0.96   0.0   0.179182858
150   1626.1   1056.7   1.30   -8.4   -2.62   0.0   0.223584271
175   1505.6   905.8   1.20   -12.1   -5.1   0.0   0.271528398
200   1394.5   777.1   1.11   -16.76   -8.55   0.0   0.323307960
225   1294.2   669.3   1.03   -22.54   -13.11   0.0   0.379161948
250   1203.3   578.6   0.96   -29.62   -18.97   0.0   0.439309597
275   1127.5   508.0   0.90   -38.19   -26.33   0.0   0.503761432
300   1066.8   454.7   0.85   -48.48   -35.4   0.0   0.572217776

[gaileyr]

Tim/Doc/Mac… went deer hunting this afternoon shortly after posting my last message in GBO.
 
My God !!!……….what has Remington and H&R wrought with this fearsome 444 Marlin ammo & firearm combination? 

I’m on my stand it’s 5:10pm 25deg with a 12mph wind blowing thru the timber. I decide I’ve had enough, my butt is freezing off.  I leave my stand and start the climb up the small ridge to the trail leading back to my truck. I spook a large doe not 30 yards from my stand. She takes off zig-zagging thru the timber. She pauses before crossing the trail clearing. I take the approx 75yd shot. She drops like she was hit by Thor’s Hammer. No running around. No tracking blood trails thru brush in fading light. None of that usual silliness. When hit she collapsed on the spot.

As you have probably already guessed from my previous posts. I’m not a huge fan of big bore firearms. I consider them overkill for most deer hunting. I’ve done most of my hunting with a 6.5x55 Swed. The only reason I purchased the 444cal. H&R in the first place was because Mississippi regulations regard it as legal for Primitive-Weapons season. But gentleman, after witnessing what a big bore can do. I concede I may have been a bit hasty in my judgment about big bore firearms.

There is a slight problem. Although I can't fault Remington's 240 grain knock down power. It does seems a bit fragile. It struck a rib and exploded. Driving pieces of bone and bullet into chest cavity and off side fore quarter. What a mess. As Tim said I may need to check out Hornady Leverevolution ammo. Hopefully it might hold together better.

[MSP Ret]

If you guys that like a .44 caliber are only hunting whitetails why don't you drop the .444 and just get a .44 Mag. It will also work fine on Whitetails. I do not have a .44 Mag barrel (yet), nor do I have a .444 Barrel (and most likely never will), preferring the flagship of the H&R/NEF fleet, the old, the venerated, the loved, respected and admired one, and the caliber which has earned it's respect, the great one, the .45-70!!!....<><....         (can you tell I like my .45-70's???)

[saltydog]

Ahh the magic of a heavy bullet traveling at a moderate speed - knocks 'em down everytime. I do not consider a big bore an overkill - after all my muzzle loader is a .58 cal. - for me it would be a consideration of the cartridge ballistics. I have an old Ruger 44 MAG carbine that performs out of proportion on midsized game when one considers it is shooting what is basically a handgun cartridge. A 240 grain bullet placed properly creates quite a bit of chaos. If I had to chose between buying only a 444 Marlin or a 45-70 in a Handi - the 45-70 would have my vote as IMO it has more versatility due to factory bullet selection.

[quickdtoo]

Congrats of the hunt gaileyr, nice going! 

Tim

[Mac11700]

COngrats on tagging a deer with it..


The LE ammo is accurate...I used it in the 45-70 this past deer season and took a nice buck with it..When pushed out to @200 yards..the bullets don't open as well as they do being up close...but with the faster velocity of the Hornady load for the 444 you should be ok..Just remember even though the BC is better than the flat points...you still have to watch the wind closely...they will drift a lot when the range is over 100 yards and the wind is kicking up good...Another source for ammo is here...http://cpcartridge.com/cart2/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_85&zenid=8e41c01ce0ffbba0e2c7728522a3578a..they have some additional bullets and weights to choose from..and also some premium ones if you choose to use them..The 240 grain Remington bullet isn't going to hold together good...it never has...but..at 100 yards and in..they work great just as they are designed to ...I did see that Grafs is having a sale on the LE ammo...and that is a real good price...http://www.grafs.com/ammo/332 You might want to grab a few boxes while it is on sale...

Mac

[Mikey]

gaileyr:  I think your buddies are incorrect.  I think they make the mistake of comparing apples to apples.  Of course the 45-70 is going to hold more water and take heavier bullets - it's a heavier caliber.  If you're hunting whitetail the 444 is absolutely perfect.  So is the 45-70.  If you reload the 444 has tremendous flexibility with .429-430 diameter bullets, from 180 - 405 with the most common found in the 240-300 gn range.  I would use any of my 444s on any north American game animal, or predator (even though I don't like lookin' fer trouble, if ya know what I mean) with complete confidence.  I often load up some lightweights, 200 grainers, just for the heck of it or for varmit, coyote, etc. 

Here's a bit of a test.  Three calibers I know of, right off, shoot 300 gn bullets.  The 405 Winchester (.405 diameter), the 444 at 430 diameter (43 caliber there) and the 45-70 at .458 diameter.  All three move those slugs out at approximately 2000'/sec.  Find somebody with a 405, buy him a box of ammo, get your buddies with the 45-70s, make sure you level the playing field with bullet style and velocity, and see which one overpenetrates the other.  Please note I said overpenetrate - either one will pass through any Whitetail, Moose or Elk I have ever seen and the 444 has clear out made sausage out of the big hogs I have shot.  I haven't ever recovered a 444 slug.  So what's the difference between that and the others.......nothing I suspect............

I would like to see you get into heavy cast bullet loading and shooting with that Handi.  Veral Smith, one of our moderators, makes molds for cast bullets and writes about lapping barrels for greater accuracy.  Another firm, Beartooth Bullets quotes Veral's writings often and offers cast bullets, load data and bore lapping materials to make your 444 a one-holer at 100 yds. 

JMTCW.  Mikey.

[LaOtto222]

I have been reading this thread with some interest as I too have a 444 Marlin. I know that Tim has a 444 and at least a couple of the 45-70's. He is a collector as much as he is a shooter. Why did I choose the 444 over the 45-70? I have several 44 mags, so the bullets are in ready supply at my house. The best powders for use in the 444 are in ready supply at my house also as I shoot small capacity 224 caliber guns so I have Reloader 7, IMR 4198 on hand. I have read about both the 444 Marlin and 45-70 in GBO. I know that there are a lot of 45-70 shooters here that advocate the 45-70 is the best there is for the Handi rifle. I may own one of those too; some day (especially the new SS thumb holed one). I figured that the 444 would do anything I needed done so there was no need to supply more bullets in house. I also figure that there is nothing I would hunt that could tell the difference between a 444 and a 45-70 (both are going to pass clean through). It was strictly a personal choice. Just as is what necked deer cartridge is better 308 or 7-08. That could be argued until the cows come home and never get a right answer. Oh, one more thing to the nay sayers about Tim, his experience with the 444 was also a big influence on my decision to get the 444, even though he has a preference to the bigger and heavier is better, he praised the 444 and shot it with good enough accuracy to consider going antelope hunting with the 444. I am going to be shooting the 444 and not worrying in the least if it is big enough, I know it is. So Just my 2 cents. So gaileyr; Shoot your 444 Marlin and do not worry about what the others think. Place the correct bullet in the proper place and you are going to kill them just as dead.