Author Topic: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)  (Read 3708 times)

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Offline MikeR C

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Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« on: December 31, 2007, 06:49:05 PM »
I have been looking for a set of drawings for the following carriage every since I saw a set in a Sept. 1945 popular Mechanics. Canadian Cannon makes what looks to be a copy of this carriage:

http://brasswithclass.com/carriage_man_of_war.php

They call in a "Man of War Carriage"
Later on my grandfather built a plastic model of a similar carriage sometime in the late 50s or early 60s, which I have tracked down and purchased, it is labeled "Naval Carriage used by John Paul Jones":



I found another plastic model labeled "Naval 24 Pounder used in the early 1800s":



I kind of combined the two kits along with the specs from Mullers Treatise on Artillery and built a small carriage like so:



This was sort of an experiment on making hardware and darkening white oak with ammonia fumes. Sorry there is no powder can but I was to lazy to trudge out to the garage through the snow to get one. The wheels are 1" in diameter. I really like the ratchet assembly that is used to hold the barrel down against the quoin:



If anyone has seen an actual full size carriage made like this or has any info I would really appreciate hearing from you. I want build a large scale model of this type of carriage in the worst way.
Thank you for letting me ramble...
MikeR C


Offline Double D

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 07:58:33 PM »
Beautiful work!! Wow!  Do you have a barrel?

Why do you need plans?  All you need to do is scale up what you have to fit the tube of your choice.


Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2008, 02:59:15 AM »
You have some options!

Since you have the one already build, you could either sketch each part, making measurements of each one, and then convert to the larger scale; or you could photograph each part on grid paper and make some additional measurements.

There are folks here on the board that would love to convert the sketchs to CAD drawings for the same purpose!

Of course what you don't have is the size of the original, but one certainly could make one larger.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline MikeR C

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2008, 05:56:21 AM »
Well, oddly enuf I don't have a barrel for this, it is a scaled down version of the composite drawings I originally made:



The axle assembly is all steel to make it heavy and all of the hardware is fabricated (square nuts are faster to make by two flats!)
I wouldn't have any trouble scaling it either up or down as I have the CAD drawings. The original drawings I created are actually drawn to fit a 20" cast iron barrel with an 1 1/4 bore, I picked up years ago. The reason I am hoping to find original drawings is so I can build an actual scale carriage as opposed to the "make believe" one I have here.
I have looked pretty hard over the years and have never seen any documentation on a carriage like this one, and I figured if any group of people had any information it would be this one!

Thanx
MikeR C

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2008, 06:13:46 AM »
Well, oddly enuf I don't have a barrel for this


[Terry's eyes light up]

Hmm... What diameter are the trunnions on you plans?

;D

Offline MikeR C

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2008, 06:31:47 AM »
The one I built would fit 1/2".

The line drawing shown is 1 1/4".


Offline Double D

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2008, 07:01:12 AM »
Have you asked Canadian Cannon?

Offline Will Bison

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2008, 10:31:17 AM »
Mike;

That's a nice looking truck! You obviously have the skills needed to turn out about anything you desire.

Bill

Offline lance

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2008, 02:54:43 PM »
 Mike, i've never seen any plans for it, but just wanted to say that you really do beautiful work!!!
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline lendi

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2008, 07:05:10 AM »
MikeR C,

I built a British carriage based on plans for a 32# barrel.  I could send you a copy of the drawing.  It is very detailed and you could scale your carriage from them.  The one that I did was for a full size British iron 3# (59" long).  Barrel is from SBR.

Len
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2008, 12:37:32 PM »
While they don't have the rachet elevation system of your design, the 24 pounders of the USS Constitution are otherwise pretty much the model of what you show.

Plans for the carriages and guns are available from Naval Historical Center--Detachment Boston for only $15 and are very good.  They were made in the 1930's while the ship was undergoing a thorough restoration.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline phalanx

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2008, 01:38:17 PM »
Sorry ,new guy ,Doesn't Hern make one of these to your specs ? We need the trunnion diameter and distance apart . You do very good work ,and these guys can find you a tube. They just need that info. You may loose some bore size if it is to close together on the trunnions ,but it will work. I didnt mean to step in. But if you still have trouble PM me i can line you up with someone.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline Tropico

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2008, 09:32:49 PM »
This would make a nice gun for ya !
 ENGLISH SWIVEL GUN, 1750-1815   (trunnion diameter is 1 1/2")  at 30" length .
http://www.hernironworks.com/cannons.html    2nd cannon from the top.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2008, 01:27:54 PM »
First let me say you built a very nice truck carriage, do not take what I am about to say and ask as a put down of your hard work.

I remember the model and a cap firing cannon I had as a kid with a ratchet on the carriage, I do wonder to the practicality of such an arrangement, under battle conditions a Gunner sighting down the rear of the piece would have to have another man work the ratchet on the side of the carriage, if the man clicked it too far then it would have to be released and the gunner would have to pull the quoin to the back and readjust. also it looks like a complicated devise for what it is designed to do and might be prone to damage, I wonder if this is a fantasy item dreamed up by the model toy maker designed to enhance his wares. Is there a full size carriage in a museum somewhere in the world with this feature? what provenance is there for this and the carriage that Canadian cannon works uses? did they also copy a model kit?
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline phalanx

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2008, 01:41:00 PM »
Allen i stayed up last night looking into the ,ratchet,in the books i have .All i could find on it were Guns used by the Spanish.
The British felt it was a cumbersome device.
Naval ,i just don't know enough about it.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline MikeR C

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2008, 06:14:17 AM »
Gentlemen,
First of all let me say that I very much appreciate everyones comments, especially the offer of drawings. I feel somewhat foolish as after making this post, I examined both of the plastic models at the SAME time, and although they are from two different companys and molded in different colors they come from the same mold. So Kabar may very well be right, that the original was "dreamed" up. As for practicality, it's no worse than iron feet to move a car or flapping wings on early planes.
I "feel" better if I can find original documentation on a project so it comes out as a scale model as opposed to just a representation, but thats my own fault. I appreciate everyone looking into this, and I will keep hoping to find original documentation some day. If not, well I have the drawings and a small tube and it will just turn out to look however it looks. I am kinda interested in DoubleD's cannon shoot and hopefully he won't care if it is to scale or not!

Thank you,
MikeR c

Offline Double D

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2008, 08:36:01 AM »
Mike,

I don't think it's fanciful.  I think if you look long enough you will find it.  Did you contact Canadian Cannon and ask them it's history?


Offline MikeR C

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2008, 09:01:06 AM »
Not yet, I keep forgetting. But, I have every intention of doing so. Theirs is so close to the Popular Mechanics one that I don't hold out much hope. Doesn't cost much to check though...

Thx
MikeR C

Offline MikeR C

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2008, 06:10:38 AM »
So, I did in fact contact CC and this is the reply I got:

"Hi Mike
I can build you a Man Of War cannon if you want and yes the drawings did come from Popular Mech.
Give me a call tole free if your still interested. 1 866 425 9663
Regards
Bill McGregor"

So, I'm back where I started from...

Kabar2, in reference to the "cap firing cannon I had as a kid with a ratchet on the carriage" does this look familiar?



That is the first barrel I ever made, .177 bore, in the High School shop no less...

Thanx again everyone that helped me with this, I will keep lookin...
MikeR C

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2008, 01:38:44 PM »
I'd appreciate it if anyone can find a genuine, old drawing of a carriage with a ratchet-wheel thingie like that, I've never seen one.  Have never seen an original carriage with one either.

The oldest model I saw it on was one mass-produced by Navy Arms beginning maybe in the early 1960's or so.

I have always thought of it as just a sales gimmick on a small replica cannon.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2008, 04:29:19 PM »
Mike RC,

Yep! that's the one!  ;D I still have mine buried in a box some where..... ::)

In all my years I have never come across anything on one of these, that's why I asked the hard questions
in the earlier post.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Help with naval carriage plans (4 pics)
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2008, 03:30:28 AM »
All of this leads me unavoidably into another book recommendation.  The most thorough book I know of on US naval guns (muzzle-loading) is Spencer Tucker's ARMING THE FLEET U.S. Navy Ordnance in the Muzzle-Loading Era, U.S. Naval Institute, Annapolis MD 1989.

The strength is the drawings and photos (all black and white.)  Tucker went into the National Archives and photographed hundreds of original drawings of US Navy cannons, then redrew them to the same scale for presentation side-by-side in the plates of his book.  His scholarship is unquestioned, he's a Phd in History and has held various prestigious "chairs" at institutions including lately VMI, his alma mater. 

Tucker was working from one disadvantage, he wasn't a "cannon buff" in the same way Ripley and Olmstead were.  Therefor you will find errors such as his confusion over the M1835 Coehorn, which I'm sure he found embarrassing when Olmstead or someone else pointed it out, if they ever did.  I've recently begun talking to Dr. Tucker, since he's here in VA, about some of the never-answered questions I have on ordnance, and he's been very helpful and accommodating.

I just found another error I'm going to tell him about, on pp. 154 he states "No Treadwell guns of the Army pattern survive..."  Of course, that's wrong, the one known gun of that pattern is in my collection and I might have even posted pix of it on this board.

You should be able to pick up the Tucker book from one of the internet sales venues quite reasonably since it has been out for a good while. 

I recommend this book highly as it is unique information (particularly the drawings) available nowhere else today.

It is certainly a "must have" for anyone building any kind of model naval cannon.