.303 CAST LOAD PERFORMANCE

[chupiw]

Hi guys, Im new to cast bullet loading in rifles.  I just loaded up some 174grGC  .312 beartooth bullets in my No1 Mk 3 lee enfield.  Powder charge was 26gr of Accurate arms 5744. PERFORMANCE WAS HORRIBLE.  the bullets were keyholing when they hit the target, if and when they even hit the target.  I have a few ideas why this happened, but would like inputs also.  As stated previously, the bullets are .312, My bore mikes out to .311ish with my calipers, its kind of hard to check because of 5 groove rifling.  This rifle shoots jacketed bullets of .311 very accurate so i know the rifle isnt at fault.  My first idea is that I used a lee loader to load this ammo.  When i seated the bullets I didnt have much of a problem starting the bullets, but I wonder if the gas check and base might have been disturbed when seated.  This loader does not have a provision for belling the case neck and I am thinking this is a very possible problem.  My secong idea is that even though the rifling is very clean and sharp on this rifle, the chamber throat is very long, so long in fact, that the cast bullet i am using isnt long enough to seat far enough out to engage the rifling.  I have read that seating the bullet out to engage the rifling helps cast rifle loads.  So I am thinking that excessive bullet jump might also be a problem.  Would appreciate any inputs, thanks

[sundog]

I suspect you've already hit on a solution.  That is a longer boolit that fits the throat seated into the lands loaded in fire formed neck sized brass.  I would also back off on velocity a little.  Another ongoing thread is discussing the 16.0 2400 load.  I have found that 16.0 is a little light on pressure in .303 with the Ly 314299, and soots the cases badly.  I would try a load in the 1600-1700 range for starters.  The SMLEs WILL shoot cast and very well.  Just need to play with it a little.  sundog

[haroldclark]

Sundog
What mold or bullet are you using that performs well in the 303 British?

I have a Mark IV that has had the stock sporterized.  I tried 311 cast and it came out sideways too.  I am an avid cast bullet shooter, but I don't have a mold for the 303 and I don't want to buy one until I find that they will do well with cast bullets.  The cartridge was originally loaded with a lead bullet, I think.

I'm interested in the progress on this subject.

Harold Clark

[haroldclark]

I forgot to mention the Lyman M-1 Die for expanding the case neck to accept cast bullets.  It has a two stage expander that will open the case neck up to proper inside dimension and then add at the mouth of the case a little more expansion that will actually allow you to insert the bullet and it will stay in place until you seat it with the die.

Harold Clark

[talon]

I believe reloading for the Enfield Mark IV Service Rifle is problematic because it's chamber is oversize. Tweaking loads will not solve this basic deficiency. The brass will fail after 1 or 2 uses. Accuracy has been traded off for combat efficiency. Don't get me wrong: it can kill a moose at 200 yards with factory 220 gr jacketed soft nose... it is accurate enough for that, but lead bullets?... It's not a gun to reload for.

[haroldclark]

Talon, I'm sorry to hear that bit of news.  I haven't had any case failures yet, but I haven't used them very much, either.

Harold :eek:

[Chargar]

First of all there are any number of British Rifles for the .303 and what I am about to say, may apply to your rifle and maybe not.

Most SMLE Enfields come with very generous throats in the area of .315. So bullets of .314 tend to work better.

Most SMLE Enfields have shallow groove rifling, so a harder alloy works best.

Most SMLE Enfield has bores that run in the area of .304.  This makes if difficult to find a cast design that has a nose that will fit these barrels. Most 30 cal noses run .299-.300 on the nose. This means bullets with significant bore riding noses won't give accuracy for sour apples.

Most SMLE Enfields have long throats. This requires a bullet that can be seated out to engage the rifling lead.

I am just starting to play with the SMLE in 303, so I can't speak from a wealth of sucessful experience. However, I am casting bullets this weeks and there are two bullets that are looking good for the .303 with the above considerations. They are

SAECO 305 - This is SAECO's idea of a 303 Brit bullet. It is a 180 grain bullet that runs .314 on the  body and .303 on the nose.

Cramer 311 169 Squib - This is a pointed bullet that runs .315 on the body and .304 on the nose where it touches the scraper groove ahead of the  body.

Accuracy with cast bullets is all about fit of the bullet to the chamber throat, gooves and lands of the barrel. Once you break the code on what dimensions your bullet must have and find that bullet, sucess is very close behind. Blind trial and error is a recipe for frustration.

In case it has not been said..make certain you clean all of the jacketed bullet fouling out of your barrel before you shoot cast. I mean ALL..clean down to barrel steel. It will probably take Sweets 7.62 or similiar product.

Best of luck..

[Chargar]

I reread the thread and saw the post about case seperations after a couple of firings. It is true the Brits have a very generous chamber on these rifles to deal with war time crud in the rifle. The fix is to only neck size your brass after it has been once fired in your chamber. Full length size your brass back to factory specs each time and you will indeed have case seperations. The case headspaces on the rim, so there is no need to control headspace by the shoulder. The .303 British is a very reloadable round, but you must understand the rifle and take it's pecularities into consideration.  Neck size only and you won't have seperations and have good case life.

[haroldclark]

Chagar,

Thanks for your input.  I have looked at the Saeco 305 bullet you mentioned, but I have hesitated to invest in the mold.  I thought the bore was .311, so I tried a Saeco 301 that casts .311 to 3.12" and sized it to .312.

That didn't work.  I had tried the Sierra jacketed bullet in the rifle before and that didn't work either, so I was really disappointed that the cast bullet didn't work.  I have a buddy that has a Brit too & he has only tried the Sierra bullets with dismal results too.

I used Sweets 7.62 before shooting cast bullets and I always neck size only rimmed cases after the initial firing.  That was a good point.  I use a lot of 30-30's and I learned that with the 30.

Thanks again for your input.

Harold

[Chargar]

Harold..As long as your bullets are not smaller than the groove diameter of the barrel, you can pretty well forget about that figure. The fit of the bullet to the chamber/barrel throat is far more important. A .308 or even .311 bullet in a .315 throat is a loosey goosey fit. If a bullet is a proper fit for the throat, that bullet is going to enter the barrel and engage the rifling straight and that is the start of accuracy. This is especially true in mil-spc rifles with their oversize chambers and throats built to work in all kinds of adverse conditions.

The SMLEs have their own problems and challenges and that is the fun of handloading and cast bullets. To get good accuracy out of a rifle, that others declare a lost cause is a real thrill. It is an even greaer thrill if you do it by intention rather than by accident.

The disciplined study of the rifle is a life long quest for knowledge and not just some bang, bang, bang, at the range. Best of luck..