Author Topic: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power  (Read 1906 times)

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Offline montveil

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round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« on: February 15, 2008, 06:30:35 AM »
I recently was talking to an ex-  blackwater   person and he stated that a flat nosed bullet is more effective in stopping an intruder than a round nosed as it imparts a more energy transfer.

Any comments?
montveil
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Offline Cap'n Jon

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2008, 06:42:55 AM »
But won't a round nose go thru steel faster than a flatnose?

Offline montveil

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2008, 10:31:53 AM »
He was only talking about persons not metal

montveil
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Offline Mikey

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2008, 01:20:50 AM »
He is correct in that a flat nosed bullet will impart more impact energy to the targtet whereas the round nose tends to slip on through.  The round nose does enough damage as it is, the flat nose just helps.  Mikey.

Offline Kurt L

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2008, 03:07:26 AM »
Very good topic.
This also adds to my deer hunting and some say i am full of S--t.
As posted above on stopping power plus.

I use light weight bullets that go in the deer and explode like a hand grenade =
all the gun and bullets energy was used and absorbed by the deer, none was wasted by
the bullet passing through.

on the bullets that pass through not all the energy or stopping power was used as it takes energy
to propel the bullet and when it passes through the deer it is still moving and using energy.

Just my 2 cents worth
KURT LGo TO RIFLE RED RYDER SUPER MAG CARBINE

Offline kennisondan

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2008, 07:54:12 AM »
agreed there are two ways to get it done : explosive expansion and energy dump type of loadings and performance creating a temporary cavity;
and penetration and wound channel with two holes --entrance and exit-- and complete penetration regardless of angle or bone etc.

done right either one works... the proponents of the first theory like large impressive wounds with plenty of cavitation and spectacular on the spot dead shot kills on occasion... like most high powered rifles perform through high velocity and a bullet matched to that speed and to the game hunted ... the shots must be optimum but when it is the performance is great... the down side is at the extremes : too close (and too fast), or hitting heavy bone or thick tissue, instead of chest cavity shots and the bullet may fail to perform : too fast and it dumps all the energy in a softball sized hole without penetration sufficient to carry through to the vital organs ( example : through the ham, strainght onto the shoulder, onto the top of the shoulder or back from very close,  twenty yard shot with a lightly constriucted bullet so the speed is way over optimum for penetration and expansion so you get only expansion and a big blood trail and no large game at the end; ) the heavier the bullet and larger the caliber, in a high performance round, and the over velocity hits still retain enough momentum and weight to punch through to the vitals. the other down side is if the optimum speed is no longer existing cause of the distance.. the bullet may not expand and being smaller than some others and pointed it makes a pencil sized hole where it hits : little blood trail and either a small wound pass through or worse : a small wound entry hole without damage of a large wound track and no violent expansion. Bullets have gotten better and premium bullets seem to have a strong following and must work pretty well all around... but not everyone will use premium bullets nor will they use good judgment as to shot placement distance bullet weight and construction choices, etc. a mistake on those things can cost you your trophy and an animal a slow death without being located by the shooter..
On the other hand : large flat nosed bullets will usually be heavier than the pointed ones and will create a larger than expected wound channel with an exit and entrance wound every time regarldess of distance or angle of entry... it still must see the vitals or all is lost, but one is not relying on shock and technical operation of the bullet dependant on the target resistance, speed/distance, and bullet choice matched to the target expected.
As to self defense the same principles hold true in my opinion : with a self defense pistol, the velocities are generally not that high, and some bullets work fine at speed and do not at lower speeds like many lighter higher speed hollow or hydraulically operated points--they are lighter to go faster and lightly constucted to assure they will upset and expand on soft targets and penetration is not a virtue, expansion is the attraction; many will work just fine in a lightly clothed adversary without a barrier in the way; but put that perpetrator in a large thick wet coat, or behind a windshield or behind some other barrier and the expnsion will be the problem.. likewise if the range is beyond what the light bullet will maintain for very far, you will lose the expansion aspect and could lose penetration as well and not have good performance... on the other hand a heavy flat nosed bullet creates a fairly large permanent wound channel ( as opposed to a temporary cavity that results in some tearing and stretching of tissue from expansion) and delivers a death blow by hemorrhage and stops by broken bones, nervous system disruption, or bleeding out; a large coat or other barrier (windshield, doorway, clothing, brush, extreme distance for the caliber, ) none of those problems with the light faster loads exist for the large heavy loading and thus it will penetrate barrier stay on course better and still penetrate just fine; going slowly will not be a problem either as momentum is what penetrates not speed, (and the lighter bullet lacks momentum due to its light weight) so losing velocity is not a problem for a bullet that is not dependant on hitting a certain target within a range of optimum speeds in order to perform it intended job...
pistols are rather anemic to begin with, so I do not like to place too much emphasis on speed and technology reliant on speed to create a huge temporary cavity and rip by stretching tissue and depends on shock and hydraulic shock... I prefer to opt for larger heavier slower pre-expanded bullets that will do their acceptable intended job because they depend upon momentum and penetration to get it done, regardless of little circumstances that pop up and make it harder for that to happen...
that said, either one in skilled hands will do fine and admirably... a miss with either will not help you, much... not having one cause it is too heavy is less useful than a miss except it does not interfere with your running... but a 357 sized bullet or a 25 or 32 has to expand a bit to approach 45, the smaller bullets can be stopped completely or deflected completely by common barriers that a 45 would penetrate, they have to be loaded with premium bullets and operated at optimum velocity to do their job, but a 45 does not have those technical requirements...
AND A ROUND NOSE 45 WILL NOT DO THE JOB THAT A SEMI WAD CUTTER WILL DO AS FAR AS TISSUE DAMAGE AND PENETRATION IN A STRAIGHT LINE THOUGH BARRIERS AND THROUGH A TARGET HARD OR SOFT FASTER OR SLOWER ENDS OF THE SPECTRUM...
Last with all that said : guess what I use : blunt nosed semi wad cutters in larger calibers unless I cannot feasibly carry or conceal or get a platform to launch it... if I have to go with a smaller caliber I get premium bullets, practice to know where exactly it will hit and pick my shots as well as possible under the conditions..
JMHO
dk

Offline montveil

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2008, 01:28:40 PM »
I have a 45 auto but iI don't know if I have ever seen flat nosed bullets for it. Would they chamber properly if they exist?
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Offline kennisondan

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2008, 04:19:19 PM »
I do belive there are semiwadcutters for the acp I will check for a Mfr. I know Unless I presently am having a flashback or otherwise hallucinating, I recall that I have shot some in the past; actually on large calibers I use flat nosed cast and semiwadcutters interchangeably...sometimes heavy deep hollowpoints ( if they function so will a semi wadcutter ) ,,,in my acp I actually use hollow points of heavy weight, I expect them to act like big flat nosed jacketed bullets probably... but they may expand if I hold my mouth right.  I think the semi wad cutters I had were solids and Jacketed plated bullets in the acp rounds.
I should have been more clear, the premise is still the same, larger blunt ( or flat due to hollow point design ) instead of round nosed is expected to do more damage and to break instead of deflect off of bone or barriers before you get there.
If i had to use a 380 to concealed carry again on occasion, I would again use the high speed high tech rounds and be really careful and practiced at head shots, center mass torso, and would try to remember in the heat of trouble that it would not penetrate a car windshield or a car door, or some doors and frams wold stop it cold; I try to carry at least a 9 mm but now try to use a 45 always for social calls and polite society blending..
dk 

Offline Ak.Hiker

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2008, 04:23:22 PM »
Hornady makes a 230 grain flat point FMJ for the 45 auto. Both Buffalo Bore and Double Tap load them. I saw some penetration tests a few years ago and the Buffalo Bore load went about 30 inches in wet newsprint. It would be interesting to see how the standard 230 ball would do in the same wet newsprint test.  

Offline kennisondan

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2008, 04:34:55 PM »
the semi wadcutter I beleive is called a truncated cone and is a little less edgy than a sharp shouldered semiwadcutter.. I think that the sharper the shoulder if the media requires cutting and tearing to get through.. the flatter nose will make more permanent cavity and penetrate more straight through to the possibly intended area.
I imagine the double tap and buffalo bore rounds are called flat points but there are others called truncated rounds that are similar.. not fmj round nose..
I also understand that the less deformity to the same shaped round, the more penetration..
there is another thread down from here that is addressing the same thing at times... it is a choice bt different calibers and of course the shape is coming into the discussion.. there are more knowlegeable folks than me discussing this there..
dk

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2008, 04:40:25 PM »
Well, just think of it in terms like this.....if you have two chunks of lead that weigh 5 lb each, and one is shaped like a wedge and the other like a wadcutter, and each is going to hit you in the chest at 900 fps, which one would you want to avoid. (You can only avoid one.)

Hmmmmm....then there is the argument that "dead is dead".

Dave

Offline BAGTIC

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2008, 04:59:34 PM »
But won't a round nose go thru steel faster than a flatnose?

The round nose will deflect easier.

Offline BAGTIC

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2008, 05:01:50 PM »
Energy doesn't kill. Damage to vital tissues kill. An arrow's energy is almost non existent compared to a gun's but it kill as quickly when properly placed .

Offline Mikey

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2008, 12:51:52 AM »
Montveil and Kennisondan:  there are two bullets made in a semi-wadcutter configuration that I use.  One is the Mag-Tech 230 gn full metal jacket semi-wadcutter and the other is a cast 238 gn semi-wadcutter of Keith design for the 45 auto rim.  Both function reliably in my Springfield and my Colt and it is hard to tell which is the more accurate (both group 2-2.5" at 25m) over 6.5 of Unique. 

I just load both to the same overall length as a ball load, or just long enough to work through the magazine.  I load the cast slug just deep enough to taper crimp the case mouth at the top of the leading band.  As mentioned, they are accurate from the bench and do not cause any malfunctions in either of my 45s.  HTH.  Mikey.

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2008, 02:04:35 AM »
Energy doesn't kill. Damage to vital tissues kill. An arrow's energy is almost non existent compared to a gun's but it kill as quickly when properly placed .

I'll second that. It's the loss of blood flow to the brain that will cause death. Weather it be the lungs collapsing from a hit and Ox. no longer being supplied, or a spine hit and the heart stopping, thus no more blood supply, or a major artery hit and fast blood loss...it all comes down to that.

Some of my quickest whitetail kills have been with an arrow.

Dave

Offline MS Hitman

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2008, 02:25:21 AM »
Kurt,

 I don't know you well enough to say what you are full of; however, the whole lightweight bullet/ energy transfer theory is, in my opinion a crock.  If I have created two holes in my quarry, then I do not believe I have "wasted" any of the bullet's energy.  I have made an extra hole to allow more blood out and more air in.  Besides, the lighter weight bullets are more prone to fail on less than perfect presentations.  I hunt to fill up a freezer and therefore do not pass up too many shots until I do so.

Offline blhof

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Re: round nose vs flat nosed bullets for stopping power
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2008, 02:38:34 AM »
I cast a 200gr semiwadcutter for the 45 acp and have never had a feeding problem with my sons H&K.