Author Topic: Break open advantages and disadvantages? (Read 2354 times)

jmayton · « **Reply #30 on:** February 16, 2008, 07:05:11 PM »

I think everyone has said exactly what I would say. But I'll add this...my benchmark for a rifle is: can I hit a 10 inch circle off-hand at 100 yards? If the rifle will do that, then it's a keeper. I hunt feral hogs in the Texas Hill Country and my .223 handi is my favorite rifle...true, my savage is more accurate off the bench, and the AR gives me the quicker follow-up shot, but if I'm chasing a herd of pigs and get that one chance for a shot while my heart is still racing, the handi does the job better than anything else...IMHO.

knight0334 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 17, 2008, 08:19:55 AM »

In my short 35 years on this planet, one thing I've learned is - a firearm is as good as you make it to be.

The claim that a break-open Handi could never shoot as well as a bolt gun is a crock of BS. I have a .223 Ultra Varmint that can shoot 1/2" 3 shot groups at 100yrds with factory Black Hills ammo. Probably could do better too with a custom hand-load. Sure, it may be easier to get sub 1/2" groups with a bolt gun - but you'll be spending hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars to get something that pretty much equates to owning a flashy sports car in compensation for the lack of something else. ...think about it, are your targets really less than 1/2", heck even less than 4" in diameter? probably not..

There's been arguments too about the slow reloading time of a break open firearm - well, I've never had to take a second shot on anything larger than a groundhog and one wild pig in FL years ago. ...make the first shot count and use the proper rifle/ammo combination and you'll never have to worry about the need to shoot again. The last five years I've hunted deer I've only taken a single rifle cartridge with me. Either it got fired and something was dragged to the truck, or it wasn't fired and it was put back in the ammo box. Carrying more ammo or the need to reload fast would have been quite pointless.

Now, do you get what you pay for? ...yes and no. There are some Handi's that take a butt load of work to shoot, then there are others that are a virtual death ray like my 45-70 right out of the box. Same holds true for pricier rifles of any type. When you buy a $200 rifle, you gotta expect it to shoot like one. Be happy when it shoots better, expect to work on it if it doesn't. Usually though, the biggest investment you'll have to make is a few hours labor to get it within MOA - which in real life is more accurate than needed to put food on the table or target shoot.

hellacatcher · « **Reply #32 on:** February 17, 2008, 11:48:28 AM »

Each to his own. I am not sure I would like a 10 in. group at a hundred even with a handie. It depends on the cal. in most case's I want less than a 4 in. 4 in. at a hundred I would think you would miss a P-dog depending on witch way he was standing. Speaking of P-dogs- the G.B. P-dog handie shoots there are dang few handies that get out of the case, if they are even brought so that should tell something, most use bolt guns. I have wasted a lot of time trying to get some to shoot they are what they are a truck gun or a good starter. You do get what you pay for. It almost seems to get anything out of one you have to turn it into something else like Fred has done Digger made a 44 into a 44super I and other have a 357max. Mack has or did have some tricked out handies also Quick. Most if not all of my bolt guns were good to go out of the box and I didn't have mortgage the farm to buy one and spend hours getting what I wanted out out of one. It is a boring weekend with the bad weather around here I should be out in the woods.

McLernon · « **Reply #33 on:** February 17, 2008, 01:56:00 PM »

The action of a tip-up rifle is not as stiff as a front locking bolt action and generally requires FL resizing of cases because of it. If you want accuracy(1 MOA) out of a Handi it's available to you but I have found that you have to do some mods to get it. All my bolt action rifles once glass bedded and free-floated shot MOA all day and the POI never changed from outing to outing. Reality, I guess but that doesn't mean that Handi's can't be good hunting rifles because they are. However, a 400 yard shot on a ground hog I think is the province of the bolt action rifle.

JMO

Mc

jmayton · « **Reply #34 on:** February 18, 2008, 06:04:58 PM »

I took my .223 Handi out the other day with a friend who just set up a new range. We've got targets out to 400 yds. We had two AR's (My Colt, his DPMS), two bolt guns (his Rem VSF in .308, my M-44 Mosin Nagant), and my Handi. We were hitting man-sized targets at 280 and 340 yards with all rifles off of a home-built varmint rest. We had a gusty r-l wind but were consistently hitting a 10 inch circle with everything but the Nagant (c-mon, its a 60+ year old rifle). At 400 yards we had a 5 inch target that I hit a few times with the handi. It was windy and we didn't have a great bench to shoot off of. Still, the Handi held it's own up against a rifle that cost 4 times as much. Granted, his .308 will put every bullet through one hole at 100yards all day long if the shooter does their job. But if we had been shooting at p-dogs or predators at those ranges, they would have been just as dead from the Handi as the Remington.

Btw the best group I've ever got out of my Handi is just under 1moa, but it holds its zero very well and never groups over 1.5moa with my handloads.

rex6666 · « **Reply #35 on:** February 19, 2008, 08:39:16 AM »

It seems that every time accuracy comes up (when talking HANDIS) this is what this fourm
is about NEF/H&R some one starts quoting benchrest rifle this or that, Let me give you a clue
a handi is not a bench gun so it can not be compared, it cost $200.00 not $2000.00 and up
Then their are some people come here only to put the Handi down i guess cause they never
have one good thing to say about them. I think these people just hang out waiting for the right time to cut the handi. Guess these people have no other place to go no other forum will listen to them. I know this is all just opinions but i think if my opinion was so low of something i would sell it and go on down the road, or build my own web site and cll it the
lets cut every thing down site.

jmayton · « **Reply #36 on:** February 20, 2008, 04:23:39 AM »

agreed, rex, but the original post was about comparison....so I think comparisons on this thread are certainly within limits. I like all my rifles (bolt, break, SA) and I shoot them as much as I can. My handi performs as well as any of them in the field, but that is more up to me than the gun. Off the bench (or a solid, but impromtu rest) that is another story. Is a break action as accurate as a bolt? Well, no....and yes. I can shoot my 1.5moa handi as well as I can shoot my .75moa savage off hand. The deer or hog at 200 yards doesn't know the difference in .75moa. However, my skills are much more important in that situation. So for hunting, handis are great. And off the bench they're as good as most factory guns...sometimes better.

rex6666 · « **Reply #37 on:** February 20, 2008, 05:12:00 AM »

jmayton
I understand what you are saying but i don't think comparing a handi to a bench gun is
fair or logical.
their are people here that say the same thing over and over "my handi won't shoot"
as well as my other guns, i say if you are unhappy with it get rid of it, don't just keep beating
the horse, get something you can shoot and stop tring to down grade the handi to every one that will listen. SOUNDS KIND OF STUPID TO OWN A GUN YOU DISLIKE SO MUCH.
If I disliked mine as much as some people say they do i would be embarassed to say i own one
After listening to this over and over i think we have people that can't realize that 2"-3" groups at 100 yards is good enough to kill most any game, they want the bullets stacked up, like a true bench gun will do, don't think that is going to happen with any $250.00 gun consistantly.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #38 on:** February 20, 2008, 07:06:34 AM »

Rex,no one is bad mouthing the Handi's.They're just telling it like it is with there Handi's versus the bolts. When some of us are hunting and the brass sticks after the first shot,its a trip back to the house or truck to find something get it out.Or your transfer bar fall out in your hand when you cock it,it makes you kind of mad. It happens quite a bit with these rifles,just go back a few page's.I still use mine,and Hellacatcher shot his deer with one this yr.,but it still a problem with many Handi's. Out of probably 40 rifles that I have the Handi's and CVA Optima Elites get carried the most.None of my Handi's will match my CZ's,Savage's,or Marlins,so thats what get used on the serious shoots. Sign up for this yrs. PD shoot and you'll see what I mean. Have a good'un. Digger

rex6666 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 20, 2008, 09:18:03 AM »

Well i guess that is where i am different, if i am going to shoot i am serious, i don't have the
problems you have mentioned. I do take care of my equipment, if it gets to where i can't
trust it i get rid of it. I do not keep it and keep harping on the problems. I have Marlin lever guns and ruger bolt guns, and handis i trust one as well as the other. If you can't trust some thing that means you have no confidence in it, no confidence in a rifle means missess
and malfunctions. All those handis that you guys don't trust should be shipped to me.
i will pay the freight

hellacatcher · « **Reply #40 on:** February 21, 2008, 12:58:42 PM »

Rex I am sorrow you feel that I and others only stay here to but down handies. I can assure that is not the case. I do like to tell it like it is without sugar coating. Like I have said at one time I did have a closet full of handies but no more. I do have some left so I feel like I have some room to talk. Please don't take offense, remember this is a learning site and if I think what little knowledge I have may help I will say so and you should do the same.

bearbeater · « **Reply #41 on:** February 21, 2008, 02:18:53 PM »

Hey
I do alot of reading and very little posting. This discussion is like are front wheel drive better that rear wheel drive. Are revolvers more accurate than semi auto. We shoot handis because we like handis. I really dont care if you use a bolt, break or a block. I use a handi because it is the best field gun hands down. I like the single shot challenge. The action is shorter that the bolt or semi and they are easy to carry. I dont have to worry if I drop, scrath, dent, or get it wet. Bench rest MOA god that everyone bows down to is a guide line and that is it. I use it for a zero piont then I shoot off hand. I have a friend that does real well on the bench and brags about it like he had this big sex member. I dont know if he does or not but I do Know this off hand my groups are alot tighter than his. I would like to see any of you shoot accurately out to 400 yds or even 300 off hand. put into prospective the handi cant be beat. A good woodsman/hunter will need just 1 shot. The pieplate group works well on Deer on ground hogs you will need a little tighter of course but like I said a good woodsman will know what club to use. Just my .02 please dontget all bent at me.

Beatbeater

quickdtoo · « **Reply #42 on:** February 21, 2008, 02:33:59 PM »

Mic McPherson has high praise for the Handi/Ultra in the Handirifle section on page 301 of his book, "Accurizing the Factory Rifle".

Tim

This interesting single-shot rifle offers surprising
accuracy in a very modest package. This
rifle's accuracy potential belies its very affordable
price. Further, the tinker need only do a few
special things to bring the best out of one of
these rifles.

This system is certainly adequate, as evidenced
by the astounding accuracy produced by
typical examples of these rifles.

The New England Firearms
Handi-Rifle (and the equivalent H&R Ultra) are a
marvel of modern engineering. Price is in the bargain
basement; performance is in the clouds.
These rifles function and shoot better than most
hardened riflemen will believe. One acquaintance
tells of a tough old Texas rancher, a multi-millionaire,
who chose this rifle as his Alasku and Canada
hunting companion on world-class safaris. If that
were not surprising enough, he fitted his .30-06
Springfield chambered Handli-Rifle (about a $200
gun) with a top-of-the-line Schmidt & Bender
hunting riflescope. (For those who do not know,
Schmidt & Bender is to riflescopes what Rolls-
Royce is to automobiles.)

jmayton · « **Reply #43 on:** February 21, 2008, 04:18:45 PM »

Nice analysis bear. That's essentially what i was getting at with my 10" off-hand at 100yds comment. I like shooting targets, especially at long ranges because of the challenge of it. I carry a Handi because of the challenge of a single, plus the gun will put the bullet where I aim, so the challenge is with me and not the equipment. If I carried a .5moa rifle hog hunting, I wouldn't be walking very far carrying that 15+lb thing around the woods...plus it wouldn't be too easy to shoot if I didn't have a rest.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #44 on:** February 21, 2008, 04:57:29 PM »

Rex,the reason we don't get rid of out Handi's is because we're Handiholics.The Faq's pages are filled with fix's for all kind of problems.The guy's that wrote the page's were not dreaming up fix's for non existant problems. Fred M has 2 of the Handis and is very vocal on quality control with them. It's took him alot of work and head scratching to come up with really nice rifles that he calls semiserious guns.I've been on this forum for 6 or 7 yrs.and have read some very bad stories on the ejectors. I started the practice of using a shim in front and back side of the forend screw to float the barrel,along with the 445 mag.conversions.
So there,we don't hate our Handis,but we do recoginize that they sometimes have there faults. Go back several yrs.and check out some of these horrow story's. These guns are alot of fun to carry and hunt with on a eve. hunt,but I'll use my other guns on serious hunts. Digger

dpastordan · « **Reply #45 on:** February 21, 2008, 05:47:45 PM »

For the average guy who shoots a box of ammo every two years or so...and gets one or two shots during hunting season...then accuracy will be relative to the hunter regardless of bolt or break-open. I believe the Handi-Rifle is just that...for the guy who wants an economical firearm with "hunting accuracy." The bolt action will be a stiffer action generally. But for the hunter, the first shot is what we desire to count on. Rifles are tools. The application determines the type of rifle one will use. The Handi-Rifle reminds me of the Swiss Army knife. The Swiss Army knife will have a variety of blades and tools. They may not equal the top of the line tools, but they will get the job done. Each barrel I buy is for a different application. And they do the job well. I own bolt action rifles as well. They shoot very well...but Handi's "tote" well in the woods in one hand. I don't worry about scratches or inclement weather. And the critters I shoot drop dead.

rex6666 · « **Reply #46 on:** February 22, 2008, 04:10:03 AM »

I don't think it could be said any better than BEARBEATER said it.
I site in on a bench, so i feel i am out of it as much as possible after it is sited in, it goes back to the bench very seldom.
Years ago i would take an off hand shot 200-300 yards if i had to, now days i don't feel capable, and i know i don't HAVE TO. I carry shooting sticks, i am as carful as posible with my rifle, don't drop in the mud,rocks, what have you, but the person bear is talking about will be
10 times harder on rifles than i will, if it works for him it fits me fine.
I have only six handis but have had no problems with any, maybe i am just lucky,
i do know that i do not need a rifle i can not depend on or trust, just don't have a place for one. If my handis become the problems that some peoples are, i will get rid of them, i would be embarassed to say i own and like a rifle that i have to work on constantly and can't trust,
sounds kinda stupid to me. I have bolt guns but my handis work just as well and cost about a
third as much.

hellacatcher · « **Reply #47 on:** February 22, 2008, 05:46:38 AM »

I think most of us are saying the same thing. Just some are taking it as a slam on handies. That is not the case. I still have about thirteen and taking one later today on a hunt with me my 357 max.

hotburn76 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 22, 2008, 09:56:28 AM »

Thanks for all the passionate input you guys are putting into this. I new I liked my Handi, but feel I do not have to worry about wandering if it is better or not. However I have found a real distinct advantage of a bolt action over the Handi, Finding a guy to do the work I want! Not sure if I mentioned it in this thread in the beginning, but I want to get a 243-W and have it reamed out to a 6mm-AI. I cant find any one that I can get with recommendations around here that will do that kind of work. So maybe quickdtoo or some of you other guys know a guy that is respected in this field that I can mail my barrel to so this can be done. I had a hard time finding a guy that even had a 6mm-AI reamer, then the one I did find all but told me no when I said I wanted to do it to a break open. Any suggestions guys, recommendations?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #49 on:** February 22, 2008, 10:09:37 AM »

Wayne York of Oregunsmithing will do it, he's done a lot of rechambers and rebores for many members here, several for me. The reamer can be rented from GBO sponsor 4D(244 Remington Ackley) for about $28 plus shipping, Wayne would normally do that if he doesn't have one.

Tim

http://home.earthlink.net/~oregunsmithing/index.html

http://www.4-dproducts.com/display.php?group=Rifle+Calibers&PHPSESSID=f5478923493368ff51f624f55b9f4f97