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Offline indydave

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elk and elk loads
« on: February 20, 2008, 01:09:40 PM »
ok i have questions         what to use in the eastern USA for an elk out of a handi      500 s&w w 325grain barnes xpb @ 2100 fps or a 308 with a 150-168 barnes TSX ?
  which would you pick and why? may get to go and was curious   i  really lean to the 500   its a 250 yard gun with practice   
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Offline burntmuch

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2008, 02:29:05 PM »
I dont know anything about the 500 so Id pick the 308 with the tsx. But me personaly plan on using my 35 whelen Handi ;D ;D
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Offline rbergum95

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2008, 02:36:08 PM »
define "eastern" as it pertains to elk, there may be better choices in caliber.

ron
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2008, 03:02:51 PM »
No questions there, the 308 hands down, I've killed too many elk with mine to want to experiment with my .500 at that range, the .308 is good past 250yds with a whole lot less recoil and is flatter shooting.  ;) The 325gr XPB has a BC of .228, that poor BC makes it a 200yd elk load since it drops below the accepted 1500ft/lbs energy for elk, it would be 300yd load for deer tho, if you have a range finder with ya and know the actual trajectory which would need to be shot at so you aren't relying on calculated data.

The 168gr TSX has a BC of .404, I get 2650fps in my .308 Ultra with it and a near max load of Varget, you can see from the table below, the .308 has sufficient energy at 300yds.

Tim

Trajectory for Barnes .500 dia. 325 gr. XPB at 2100 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.228   0.228   0.228   0.228   0.228
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1120   1120   1120   1120
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2100.0   3181.9   3.03   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2016.1   2932.7   2.91   -0.25   0.58   0.0   0.036450403
50   1934.2   2699.3   2.79   -1.04   2.12   0.0   0.074431067
75   1854.4   2481.2   2.68   -2.41   3.07   0.0   0.114033048
100   1776.8   2277.9   2.56   -4.41   3.4   0.0   0.155352119
125   1701.6   2089.1   2.46   -7.1   3.04   0.0   0.198487126
150   1628.9   1914.5   2.35   -10.54   1.93   0.0   0.243538298
175   1559.0   1753.6   2.25   -14.8   0.0   0.0   0.290606026
200   1491.9   1606.0   2.15   -19.95   -2.82   0.0   0.339788759
225   1428.0   1471.4   2.06   -26.08   -6.63   0.0   0.391178312
250   1367.5   1349.3   1.97   -33.27   -11.49   0.0   0.444856162
275   1310.7   1239.5   1.89   -41.63   -17.52   0.0   0.500888210
300   1257.8   1141.5   1.82   -51.25   -24.81   0.0   0.559316717

Trajectory for Custom .308 168gr Barnes TSX at 2650 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.404   0.404   0.404   0.404   0.404
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2650   2650   2650   2650
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2650.0   2619.2   1.98   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2595.8   2513.1   1.94   -0.16   -0.08   0.0   0.028596159
50   2542.2   2410.4   1.90   -0.64   1.01   0.0   0.057792431
75   2489.3   2311.1   1.86   -1.45   1.77   0.0   0.087606592
100   2436.9   2214.9   1.82   -2.62   2.18   0.0   0.118058185
125   2385.1   2121.8   1.78   -4.15   2.23   0.0   0.149167376
150   2334.0   2031.8   1.74   -6.06   1.89   0.0   0.180954629
175   2283.6   1944.9   1.70   -8.37   1.15   0.0   0.213441238
200   2233.7   1860.9   1.67   -11.1   0.0   0.0   0.246649675
225   2184.4   1779.7   1.63   -14.27   -1.59   0.0   0.280603593
250   2135.7   1701.2   1.59   -17.89   -3.63   0.0   0.315327661
275   2087.6   1625.5   1.56   -21.98   -6.15   0.0   0.350847405
300   2040.2   1552.5   1.52   -26.57   -9.17   0.0   0.387189160

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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2008, 03:12:46 PM »
I often wonder who ever started the rumor that elk are harder to kill than deer, don't seem that way to me, any reasonable bullet, .243 or larger, will do fine out to as far as you can place it properly.
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Offline aflineman

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2008, 03:18:59 PM »
I would say .308, out of those choices. Greater range for the same weight of rifle, just in case you need it.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2008, 03:38:46 PM »
"I often wonder who ever started the rumor that elk are harder to kill than deer"

Elmer Keith.....it's not a rumor.
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Offline indydave

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2008, 05:01:04 PM »
Tim,

  that 325 xpb is so pointed  i expected more from it     but its .500 dia   that hurts it    in the BC          well if i get drawn its the 308!!!! woo hoo!!!!!!!!!
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2008, 05:05:44 PM »
Yeah, it's kinda like my x-wife, short and fat!! ;D

The 385gr Rem Core-lokt looks a little better on paper, but I dunno how it shoots yet, it's another one of those spring projects!! :D

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,131576.msg1098490701.html#msg1098490701
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Offline indydave

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2008, 11:27:14 PM »
Tim,
              what bullets haveyou used on elk out of your 308?  i want to try the 168 tsx  but may have to use the 165 tsx    i wonder if the 150 tsx would do it ? on broadside i have no doubt   but 1/4 to or 3/4 away i dunno   the 165 and 168 would be fine but?????????????
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Offline carbineman

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2008, 04:10:24 AM »
FWIW, I have a friend that relocated to Wyoming. He uses the same load he used for whitetails here for everything he hunts in Wyoming. We loaded a 130 grain Barnes XBT @ 3050fps. He uses this for black bear, deer, elk and antelope. He killed every mentioned species so far with this load. He is a good shot and his placement is good or he doesn't take the shot.

Before he moved we loaded a good stock of ammo for him, and when he runs low, I have a good excuse to go visit him!!
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Offline rex6666

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2008, 04:27:13 AM »
Tim i must correct you here.
their are no fat women, some are just too short for their weight. ;D
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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2008, 04:51:33 AM »
And there are no short people, just altitudenally challenged.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2008, 05:27:49 AM »
Quote from: indydave on February 20, 2008, 11:27:14 PM
Tim,
              what bullets haveyou used on elk out of your 308?  i want to try the 168 tsx  but may have to use the 165 tsx    i wonder if the 150 tsx would do it ? on broadside i have no doubt   but 1/4 to or 3/4 away i dunno   the 165 and 168 would be fine but?????????????


I've only used 3 bullets over the years, 180gr NPs for a bit, 180gr Core-lokts and 180gr Failsafes for the most part, but I always shot factory ammo, I didn't start handloading until a few years ago, haven't hunted elk with a centerfire since, just muzzleloader. But I'd choose the 168gr or 180gr TSX or TTSX if I were going to pick one now since the Failsafe is no longer made and they have similar performance. I've only recovered one Failsafe out of 14 elk shot with the Failsafe, that was on a spine shot on a big cow, all the rest were pass thrus. The Core-lokts were shot in 30-06 and 308s, they always end up in pieces against the hide on the opposite side of the dead elk!! The 168gr Match TSX shoots real good in my BB 308 Ultra on top of Varget.

Tim
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Offline rex6666

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2008, 10:12:53 AM »
COYOTEJOE
I hate to bring this up but ;) we had this conversation before on another thread.
There are lots of folks that think a minum of 300 win. mag for elk, you see elk are tougher now than when they were killed with a 243 at 150-200 yards. You also need to start shooting at about 400-500 yards, do not try to get any closer. ::)
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Rex
GOD GUNS and GUTS MADE AMERICA GREAT

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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2008, 04:34:35 AM »
Yes, I guess I'm out of step, oh well, this old white boy never did have any sense of rhythm! ;D
I used to believe Elmer Keith when he claimed the .338 Win Mag was the perfect elk rifle. Over the years I've come to realize you can only kill a thing just so dead and a .22 short in the heart will kill anything that walks, the trick, of course, is putting it there. ;D
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The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline rex6666

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2008, 04:39:48 AM »
kinda like the story about puting the butter some where on a widcat with a hot butter knife.
It can be done i'm sure< but i don' think by me.
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Rex
GOD GUNS and GUTS MADE AMERICA GREAT

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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: elk and elk loads
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2008, 05:09:23 AM »
I'm sure the two elk I killed at 50 yards with cast bullets from a 30/30 were just blind, stupid, weaklings but I'll bet they tasted just as good as any Elmer killed at 500 yards with his .375 H&H.
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The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.
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