Blackpowder & Glue-on paper patch

[Alias]

Hi Veral,

I have 2 muzzleloaders that I have used your glue-on paper patches:

The first one is a TC Hawken .50 cal that sports a 1:28 twist green mountain barrel having .500 bore/ .512 groove dimensions. This barrel  has been "choked" to be approx. .001" larger & turned to fit a guide bullet starter. The bullet is .506 dia 560 grain grooved bullet from a custom Hoch mold patched to .512 dia  using 2 wraps of dress pattern paper. After drying the patch is cut flush with the base & sprayed with moly lube afterward. The bullet is 30:1 or pure lead. The powder is 75 gr Goex 2FG. The best 10 shot group @ 100 yards so far has been 2.75"

 

The second is a Lyman Plains rifle that was relined to .44 cal (.420 bore/.428 groove) also choked. With a leftover piece of barrel liner I made a "prerifling die" so I can start the .428" patched bullet with my thumb. The 377 grain bullet is cast from  a .22 cal gun show mold that I opened up to .422" (w/grease grooves) then patched the same as the .50  Powder charge is 60 gr 2Fg Swiss. Best group has been 8 shots in 2.75" @ 100 yds.



What changes would you suggest for improving accuracy? Lately accuracy has fallen off & it may be that is because I've been using pure lead?

[Veral]

  For starters, you are not using glue on patch, so far as anything I read in your well detailed description, as there was no mention of glue of any kind. If not, you are patching the conventional way, which is fine if you can get the paper to stay on.  I invented the GOP method because my fingers are too thick to wrap wet paper.  (No WAY will I admit it's a mental deficiency!) 

  Since I've never been able to roll patches the conventional way, my information will be very well grounded from customer feed back and reports, but nevertheless, hearsay, not real hands on experience. -- Yet I think I see two shortcomings in your procedure.

  With conventional patching, twist a tail at the base, and trim it a little but not real short after the paper is well dried.  This keeps the paper locked on.   (With GOP the paper can be trimed tight to the base of left hanging a bit with no problems.)

  If you are shooting black powder, don't use a dry lube, or petroleum based one.  Use a natural fat, like lard mutton tallow, or easiest of all any of the brands of black powder lube called Natural Lube.  From my understanding, one company makes all of them to the same standard but several companies sell it under their own label.  If you are shooting smokeless powder, including Pyrodex, one of the LBT lubes cannot be beat.

  You state that you are loading muzzle loaders.  That means the bullets have to be small enough to be rammed down the bore, which dictates pure lead or not harder than 20-1 or possibly 40-1 tin lead, so the bullets can obturate out and fill the bore for a good grip.  Since you are using pure lead, after trying patches which cover the base and are lubed with a grease that keeps the fouling soft, if accuracy doesn't come together well try smaller charges to see if you are stressing the pure lead combination.  If accuracy tightens with reduced charges, go to a harder alloy and increase the charge up to max.   Or, perhaps even your charge isn't heavy enough to stabilize your bullets now, and an increase in charge will get enough extra spin on the bullet to stabilize them.  But don't increase the charge if your bore isn't staying clean.

[Alias]

Thanks for your reply Veral,

The patches used are glued on with 50/50 water & lepage wood glue. They are dried in a 200 degree oven for 15 minutes then the paper is trimmed flush with the base of the bullet. Bullets are patched to groove sized, not bore sized - so do not need to obtrate. I use the mechanical starter or pre-rifle the bullets (since they are patched to groove dia). Once pushed past the choke, the bullets slide down with little more than the weight of the ramrod even though they are fully rifled.

I haven't tried to make bullets patched to bore size, maybe that would work better?

Even though they are moly coated I still rub them with homemade lube (bearfat & beeswax) before loading

I will do as you suggest and not spray the patched bullet with dry moly lube (as it's petroleum based) and just stay with the homemade lube

As you suggested, I had reduced the load for the second muzzleloader from 75 to 60 grains and accuracy did improve. I will try some 30:1 bullets in this one as I haven't tried that yet

Do you think too soft a bullet (pure lead) can cause inconsistent groups (some times good, next time twice as big)?

[Veral]

Sizing to bore diameter will not help accuracy as it will only cause the bullet to obturate out of shape more on takeoff.

I think if you left the beeswax out your bearfat alone would be a bit slicker, as beeswax is not a lube in itself, though it is natural and won't hurt if you don't dilute too much with it.

  If too soft is the inaccuracy problem you'd be normally getting leading if it weren't paper covered.  But with paper, too soft can cause the nose to slump out of balance if there is any room for it to happen, for example if the nose is long.

[Castaway]

I feel a need to jump in on this one.  Dress pattern paper is fragile.  The patch may be standing up to rammed and then make it out the barrel after shooting, but I doubt it, especially if patched to bore size. 

[Alias]

Sorry I don't have a better camera, but as you can see the paper holds up fine (the glue seems to greatly strengthen the paper. If you remove the paper, the rifling is engraved into the lead (thru the paper) without tearing the
paper
 
Top Picture: .512 patched bullet before loading
Middle Picture: .512 patched bullet after loading & pushed out breech (plug removed)
Bottom Picture .428 patched bullet after pre-riflingl

[Veral]

  I'm riding with Castaway on his comment that the dress pattern paper is too fragile.

  If you are cutting through it the rifling EDGES are riding on plain lead and the patch is doing no good for that super critical area or for the top of the rifling bearing surface.  I believe this is your break point which is causing inconsistant accuracy.  Try it with 100% cotton and I think you find a world of difference in performance.

  Notice on your photos that there is a shadow falling across the tub top toward the camera.  For this type photos position your bullets so the light comes from the same direction as the camera and don't try to photograph under florescent lights as they are completely off, completely on 60 times a second with standard ballasts.  Take your bullets outside on a bright day, but not in full direct sun. and keep your back to the sun watching for any shadow you may throw with your body.  If the bullet shines on the edges so you can't see the edges well in your viewfinder, set a dark object close close enough to throw a shadow on the shiny edges and they will show in your photo.  Camera shops have a special gray cardboard with is sold for this purpose.  The cardboard or shadow maker doesn't need to show in the photo, and shouldn't.

[Alias]

Thanks Veral,

Can you recommend a source of 100% cotton paper that glued on will add .006" to the bullet diameter? 

[Veral]

  It is available in small packets and in reams of 500 sheets from almost all  office supply stores.  If you get 20 pound it will be .0035 thick and give you a nice solid .006 when wrapped on.    It is available in lighter weights also, even down to .001 thickness, but I have no idea what the weight would be.  15 pound will be a commonly available weight also.  Take your micrometer along and measure what you buy to be sure.

[Castaway]

Found this:  http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/   It addresses patching a muzzleloader.

[Alias]

Thank you for the advise Veral & Castaway. I will try some other papers when things thaw out here.