Lil'Gun, The magic Powder for 22 Hornets?

[LaOtto222]

I have been reloading for quite a few years, close to 30 years now. Lil'Gun is the magic gun powder in the 22 Hornet that has resurrected it from the ashes, by some accounts. I have been fooling around with the 22 Hornet lately with Lil"Gun. A few years ago I used WW 296 in my Hornets. I have several reloading books and a few of them have Hodgdon Lil'Gun listed for a powder to use in the 22 Hornet. What puzzles me is the wide variance in powder charges they list. Hornady edition #6 uses a Ruger #3 with a 22" barrel and 1 - 16" twist rate. They used WW cases and WSR primers. They list a maximum of 11.3 grains of Lil'Gun under a 50 grain bullet for a relatively (relative to Hodgdon manual) slow 2400 fps. In Hodgdon reloading manual 2006 they list a barrel that is 24" with a 1 - 16" twist using WW cases and WSR primers. They have a starting charge of 12.0 grains of Lil'Gun going up to 13.0 grains for over 2700 fps. The 13.0 grain charge has a relatively low pressure rating of 35,300 CUP. Hodgdon did not list the make of the barrel, but it has the same twist rate, same case and same primer as the Hornady manual lists. I know you are supposed to start low and work your way up, but Hodgdon's starting load is above the maximum for Hornady's load. To confuse the manner more Speer reloading manual states they use CCI 500 primers (small pistol) and if you use SR primers to back off their loads. They also used WW cases. Again their maximum load is 12.0 grains for a 50 grain bullet; the same as Hodgon's starting load with the "erratic" small rifle primers. Sierra manual edition V 2nd printing uses WW cases in a rifle with 1 - 16" twist but a Fed 205M primer. They do not even list Lil'Gun for a 50 grain bullet, but do for a 45 grain bullet and they have a maximum of only 8.9 grains for a lighter bullet. I assume that since they do not list 50 grain bullets with Lil'Gun that it is not suitable for a 50 grain bullet. I know there is a difference between one gun and the next, throat lengths, primers and one lot of primers to the next etc., but this is a very wide river I am trying to cross. What is a guy to do when the maximum load is lower in one manual compared to the starting load in another and there is such a wide variance for such a small case? To muddy the waters a little more, I have read where people are usually loading bullets longer than standard OAL (you would think it would lower pressures, but get closer to the lands, raising pressure), some crimp, some do not, many list what seems to be high powder rates for Lil'Gun. I have even read where you can not get enough Lil'Gun in the case to cause over pressures. I would like a discussion started on your thoughts on these wide variances with Lil'Gun and how you arrived at your conclusion. Let's keep it friendly, it is just a discussion, it is not life threatening, it will not steal your manhood or will solve world peace.

[stimpylu32]

Unfortunately this is not the only powder that has such wide discrepancies to its data , a lot of them can come from the type of firearm used ( test barrel or rifle ) along with the testing equipment and even the softwear that was used to process the data from the test .

You may also find that some of the numbers are from computer generated softwear as far as pressures go , by using velocity along with powder density and other factors .

I think that we will continue to see these kinds of data differences as long as the powder & bullet companies continue to have no set test equipment standards . Just my take on this thing .

stimpy

[LaOtto222]

I was hoping you would weigh in on this Stimpy, I know you have as much reloading experience as I have, if not more. I have many reloading manuals, but some times it is just confusing to look at all of that data that does not seem to correlate. I think some times you just have to make an educated guess. I would still like opinions from more sources (people).

[stimpylu32]

The biggest problems with this whole thing are even though SAAM has set standards as far as pressures go , there seems to be no sure way to adapt to those standards .

Even the test equipment that is used to check velocities has no set standard as far as to were to set up and how far from the barrel it should be .

No one type of testing equipment or even a set way to list the results ( cup V psi ) , even in the same cartridge from the same company .

In a perfect world all testing would be done the same way and the results would be listed as such , but as it is we are still at a point were we have to learn to adapt the data that we have and re-lie on some good old common sense .

stimpy

[LaOtto222]

There was another thread started about Lil'Gun and it is all running negative so far. Where are you guys that keep going on about how good it is and all the fine results you get? I would like to hear from some of those folks too. I guess I do not understand how I am getting such (seeming) erratic results and you get such good results. What am I doing wrong? I am not trying to start an argument, I just want some hard facts on how you got to where you are with your loads and why you like it so well. What am I missing?

[coyotejoe]

laOtto222, I posted this same rant on another site and people jumped on be like I was denouncing apple pie and motherhood all in one post!    Lots of folks just love the stuff and don't want to hear otherwise. I think your original post says a lot. Yes, data from different sources will vary, but Sierra's max of 8.9 grain versus Hodgdon's max of 13 grains represents a difference of 46%!  I have never seen that sort of spread with any other powder, 10% OK, 15% maybe even 20% in rare instances but 46%? Never!
 

[quickdtoo]

I use Lil'gun in 22H w/35gr Vamx and 30gr Calhoon, 45Colt w/250gr GDHP and 250gr SST, and 500S&W w/350gr XTP, 440gr CP and 700gr RR, it's been great with all of em except the 30gr Calhoon in the 22H, but H110 didn't do any better. I plan on using it in the 357mag Handi w360DW brass and in the 44mag Handi as well. One thought that occured to me after reading the Shooters forum link below, might be the one Joe referred to, I weigh every charge, so they're as identical as me and the Lyman digital dispenser/scale can make em, if charge weights vary slightly, that could account for the difference in velocities as one poster mentioned pertaining to just a slight change in charge. For the Hornet my load progression is in .1gr increments since it's such a tiny case, figured that could make a big difference in one charge weight to the next. I'm real happy with Lil'gun, have no reason to change.....yet!!

Tim

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=44766

[LaOtto222]

I also weight every thing. I have a RCBS Charge Master and I let it do it's thing showing the weight, it then comes up and tells me the throw number and then it goes back to what the charge is. Some times, it shows differently afterward. I cull those and reweigh another charge. It has to settle out to be exactly right before I put it in the case. Some powders are worse than others. Lil'Gun does pretty decent, Varget does not do so well. The kernels are big enough that when it calls for just a little more, several kernels fall out, it calls it good then goes into the number thing and then comes back and tells me it is over by 1 or 2 tenths. Dump and reweigh. Any who, I feel that I am getting accurate results as far as powder weight is concerned. I have not experienced a single pierced primer, even the ones loaded up with WSPM primers showed way too much pressure ( I think), but no piercing. I know that there are lots of people that have gotten real good results from it. I really want Lil'Gun to work. I was doing some more research really doing some head scratching wondering why so many people got so much different results. I assume that they were all safe, from the big boys that published data. The Speer reloading book i#14 s the latest manual I have and they recommend small pistol primers. They stated they got more even results as far as pressure spikes with the SP primers across all powders, not just Lil'Gun. A fellow in the Savage area says he is getting 1 hole groups with Lil'Gun and 40 grain bullets and .5 MOA with 50 grain bullets. I believe he puts a light crimp on his. He is using a pretty heavy load of Lil'Gun and SR primers. I have gotten some decent groups, but have got them inconsistently. I know if you under charge a case it can cause pressure spikes, maybe I am babying it too much. It is hard to tell, when one manual tells me to max out at 11.3 and another tells me to start at 12.0, every thing being the same; the same case, same primer, same twist rate, same weight bullet. There are differences in barrels, but sheesh, what do I do? Close my eyes and go for the brass ring. I have been conservative, maybe I should just stuff it full and let'er rip. It seems every time I read about someone that is getting good results they are up to 13.0 grains or close to it. Some up to 13.5. I do not know how they can get that much in case. I am using WW cases and 12.0 brings me up to within .150" or so to the top.

[quickdtoo]

Crimping with the Lee FCD is one other thing that I do with the hornet, and most chamberings for that matter if Lee makes one.

Tim

A little hint on the dispenser with extruded powders, set it to charge  .1gr less, then trickle the last bit in, that way the dispenser doesn't dump too much, sometimes it pours exactly what I want, or just a tad less and I hit the trickle button for the rest, sometimes just a tap on the dispenser tube is enough, works for me.

[bkraft]

I've weighed in a time or two about the hornet, love it. But either my karma was bad or the moon was in the wrong phase or I was just flat unlucky I could not get Lil Gun to work for me. In my 10 in. TC it ate cases right and left I had to carry a 1/4 tap in my pocket to extract em. My Model 40 Savage groups drooled all over the place worse than granny without her dentures. I tried different primers small pistol and small rifle no real difference. Went to IMR 4227, things tightened up and life is good. Tried Lil Gun in my .41 Mag Redhawk it was OK there but 2400 was a bit more accurate even though it is dirtier.

[gypsyman]

I've never used Lil'gun, but this sounds like what I've experienced and talked with other reloaders about. How lot to lot consistences will vary with different powders. Although this seems to be an extreme spread, I guess anythings possible. I've had to go up or down 1 to 2 grs. to get the same results, depending on caliber, just because I started with a new lot of powder. Loading for my .44 and switched from H4227 to IMR4227, there was a 2 gr. difference to get the same fps over the chrony. I realize that there is a much bigger powder volume that we're dealing with in the .44, than the Hornet.
Also, remember that  in printing load manuals, sometimes mistakes get made. Although after reading about Lil'gun, I think I'll stick to using 4227.  gypsyman

[LaOtto222]

I ordered a Lee FCD from Mid South along with some 35 V Max bullets and some other stuff I needed to try with the 22 Hornet. I think I am going to hold off on doing any more experimentation with the Hornet until I get the die. I have been using the Lee collet neck sizer on the Hornet and the neck tension does not seem to be very much, so hopefully the FCD will help keep things more consistent. That might be due to the thin necks? I have used their collet dies on 223 and 222 and they seem to do just fine.