Personal Defense TV

[XD9]

Anyone ever watch the Personal Defense TV show on the Outdoor Channel?  It sounds pretty interesting.  There is an ad in my latest Shooting Times magazine where they are selling the full season one (4 DVD's) for $29.99.  I don't get the Outdoor Channel so I've never seen the show.  Anyone watch it?  Is it good?  Would it be worth the $30?

Thanks...

[gwhilikerz]

I like that show, especially the segments with Massad Ayoob . But I do think they spend way too much time with "experts" talking about focusing on the front site. IMO that is why so many shots are missed by police in a shooting situation.

[XD9]

Are you saying you don't think you should focus on the front site?

[gwhilikerz]

My opinion is that you can focus too much on the front sight. Many shooters are taught to focus, focus, focus on that front sight. The instructor will tell you that in the tension of a fight your training will take over and you will do what you are taught. So you get in trouble and have to defend yourself. You pull the pistol and focus, focus, focus on the front sight. You aren't even aware whether the front sight is lined up on the target and you start pumping out rounds. That is (my opinion) why many people miss a full size target or man at 5 yards. We see police videos of that very thing all the time. It is much better to pull the pistol and "punch" it at the target, while focusing on that target at closer ranges. Save the front sight shooting for longer range precision shots. Again these are just my opinions and are sure to cause heart stoppages with the training gurus.

[Heavy C]

I watch it regularly.  I like the show although Tom Gresham (host) can be a little hokey from time to time.  They offer a little bit of everything from techniques on shooting to how to handle some hand-to-hand stuff.  They also review products which is cool to watch, but I pull out the salt shaker for that segment.  I have yet to hear or read a negative review of any item they test.  When you read the magazine artiicles in G&A or Shooting Times they might find some things they didn't like or it didn't function properly and the last paragraph summarizes everything into a favorable review.   

Given you don't get the Outdoor Channel you might consider buying the DVD's.  By the way, they also spend a lot of time at the Gunsite Academy.

[XD9]

It is much better to pull the pistol and "punch" it at the target, while focusing on that target at closer ranges. Save the front sight shooting for longer range precision shots.

I see what you're saying.  Thanks for the reviews.  I may look at purchasing the DVD's sometime.  We're getting ready to move and I'll have satellite where we're going which means I should get the Outdoor Channel.  Of course, after I watch it 24/7 for a week, my wife may have it disconnected! 

[gwhilikerz]

LOL, tell her she can get the Game Show Network on the other tv.

[XD9]

    It's hilarious that you would say that...She freaks out every time we're on vacation and the hotel has the game show network.  She LOVES it!  Every time we're in the room, we're sitting there watching Love Connection, Newlyweds, etc.  Good call! 

[SHOOTALL]

I would imagine most policemen miss because someone is shooting back , which has the effect of diverting some of your attention away from your own shooting !
the front sight on the hand gun is a reference as to where your muzzle is , some instructors suggest you place a white rag or tape on the business end of a shotgun for the same reason . at close range you point and shoot and not take a fine aim . as distance increases you must have a better idea as to where you are shooting and the front sight helps ! watched a cop show the other night where the dash cam. filmed a guy shooting at a cop and the cop returning fire . both missed the felon at least once the cop emptied a high cap gun ! they were touching when it started had the cop looked at his gun , which he did not he may have hit the attacker ! and no i won't find fault with him as it was one of the most brutal things i have ever seen ! he was lucky to make it !
there are more than a few schools on pistol craft . most are similar with a few distinct differences . they are this way because of the experiences that the instructors had along the way ! Mr Ayoob is only one ( a good one ! ) of them .
I don't claim to be an authority but can tell ya - if you don't know where you are aiming in a gun fight you will be lucky to live pass the first shot if your attacker can shoot ! CAUSE YOU CAN"T MISS FAST ENOUGH TO WIN ! AND THAT"S A FACT !
think about the money spent to shorten lock time on the first shot as far as speed . And the training that a policeman gets and they still miss !
anyway the show is somewhat slow if you have had classes before but still some good points are given  ! 

[44 Man]

I have a friend who has had a lot of 'regular' police training and was in one gunfight.  He said he never saw the sights, only looked over the top of the gun at the attacker.  He fired 6 times and had 1 peripheral hit!  He was fortunate in that it stopped the fight, but you must concentrate on a sight picture and place the front sight where you want to hit.  THAT's why so many people miss a man sized target at close range.  Without the training to continually concentrate on your sights, you only look at the danger and trigger off shots in the general direction.  Like the man said, in an emergency, training takes over and you do what you have trained to do, so you must continually train correctly.  44 Man

[SHOOTALL]

that's good ! 44 man saw it printed some where cops only hit one in 7 shots . lack of practice some ! stress most likely !
another thing people who research shootings tell you is that a high % of hits are the gun hand of the attacker because you see the gun as the threat and shoot at it with out even knowing you are doing it !
iit take 800-1500 times of doing anything for you to be able to react and expect to be able to get it done with out thinking about it , like drawing or aiming under pressure . that's alot of practice and if you stop , ya get rusty !

[gwhilikerz]

I see I started something. Funny you all point to police officers who miss (and then say they didn't look at the sights). These are the very people who have had the training and procedure drummed into their heads. They are trained to focus on the front sight, they practice this countless times. Then when they have to shoot in real life they miss. The training went out the window. They won't admit it but they were so focused on the front sight that is all they saw. They deliberately looked at the sight instead of the threat, that is their training. Also kind of strange how years ago police were trained to crouch, draw, and shoot their revolvers with one hand in a point and shoot type stance. They hits were just as good or better than what is done today. Anyone who says "you can't miss fast enough to win" has had the training or read the books that we all read. Of course you can't afford to miss, but you also can't afford to take too much time aiming.

[SHOOTALL]

that's right take your time as fast as you can !
the point is if you get off a good shot its faster to stop a threat than missing and having to take another . giving the threat time to shoot you .
It is also why some who can maintain composure under fire are good gun fighters and those who cannot , well aren't !
the sad truth is you won't know until it happens ! and being tuff and ruff has nothing to do with it ! Take for instance Mr. Rodgers and Capt. Kangaroo , one a seal team sniper with many combat kills the other awarded the Medal of Honor , credited with saving the lives of his men while under fire ! neither look like he men but both displayed both nerves of steel and tuffness far more so than most !
the reason police are singled out is there are records kept that offer their track record for inspection .
It has also been stated that combat match shooters have a higher hit count because they practice more , true or not it makes seance ,
also i have never heard anyone talk about suppressing fire as related to the cops , which would account for some extra shots !
don't laugh the military is using a Billion rounds a year now in the two fronts they are fighting on , and they haven't racked op a billion kills have they ?
my ref. to cops was to note that gun fights are savage affairs and the best trained are affected by the FOG of COMBAT !
if you wish to test your self then take a 3in. X 5in. index card and place it 7 yards down range at chest level and time yourself - draw and shoot one shot hitting the card , you should be able to do so in less than 1 1/2 seconds . you most likely will see the front sight if you can hit the card . the second test is to hit a standard sheet of notebook paper at 15 yards in same time , but double tap it this time . i believe you will also see it this time to .
add the fact your attacker is well attacking , moving etc . ya better know how to put that first bullet where it counts or you are in for a hard row to hoe !
and for those that ain't figured it out yet when some gunslinger on TV walks a can across the ground he's shooting blanks and some tech is setting off charges to make the can move ! I have had the privilege to watch some great shooters and they don't do stuff like that but to a man they practice ! and say watch the front sight !

[gwhilikerz]

3x5 index cards at 7 yds? A piece of paper, double tapped. Great training for a combat shooting contestant. But nowhere near real life. I've said enough about this. Everyone just shoot their way.

[JKF59]

  As far as I know there are no "gunfighters" that have experienced enough gunfights to be considered an expert on the subject. Doing anything one time does not make you an expert.
  When speaking about all of the shootouts that have taken place that involve law enforcement personnel, I would think that almost every incident is the only shootout that this particular cop has been in. A very few have been in more than one gunfight but most cops that have been in a shootout have only been in that one.
  The end result of only one experience can not be rationally used as evidence for anything. Even if this incident happens 1000 times it is still the only time for those involved. I would think that out of 1000 incidents that the law of averages would allow some shooters to make good hits on their first shot. If most of the shots in 1000 fights miss their target then the "evidence" says that you are most likely to miss and if you hit on the first try then you are just lucky. If you take the one or two individuals that just happen to make good hits and want to deem them "experts" then whatever they say becomes fact. Even if they are wrong. Ofcourse, they could be right. The point is that you dont know because there is no one person that has enough actual experience.
  Snipers are not gunfighters any more than Lee Harvey Oswald was a gunfighter.
  Medal of Honor winners are one in a million. That is why they are honored. If it were something that everyone could do every time then it would not be worth mentioning.
  My point is if you are going to plan for your self defense based on what someone else says then make sure that they know what they are talkin about. Better yet, YOU make sure that you know what they are talking about and if it is really pertinent to the situation.

[SHOOTALL]

the card and paper show you how to shoot as fast as you can and hit something , the personal defense classes i have taken have all had a timed shooting session , when we did this string we had to place money in the kitty each miss and remove some each hit ! as the instructor stated always shoot for something !
but as a reply to the crack about match shooting , no games are not 100% real but timed shooting can get a shooter up to his best speed and also make using the sights faster , much faster . but if you can't do either test then ya might want to get some practice in .
the stress in a real gun fight will be higher than a match , but to never see how you do under pressure is taking a great risk ! same for not shooting with your off hand etc.

[The Pistoleer]

Shootall, you should check out the Urban Legend site at http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/mrrogers.asp and also http://www.snopes.com/military/marvin.asp
neither Mr Rogers nor Captain Kangaroo were war heros.  Mr Rogers was too old to have been a seal  and Bob Keeshan (Capt. Kangaroo) joine the Marines too late to participate in WW2.

As for the topic point shooting is a very viable defence method.  Charles Atkins, who probably was involved in more actual gunfights than any other, was an advocte of it. Those who subscribe to point shooting maintain that  it is more important to see what your adversary is doing than seeing your front sight other than in your peripheral vision.  I have found this to be true.

The Pistoleer

[Dusty Miller]

You aren't even aware whether the front sight is lined up on the target and you start pumping out rounds.

Horsefeathers.

[Dusty Miller]

These are the very people who have had the training and procedure drummed into their heads. They are trained to focus on the front sight, they practice this countless times.

From what I've heard, just the opposite is true, that police departments generally are woefully inadequate when it comes to training their officers in combat shooting.

[SHOOTALL]

Guess the Lee Marvin interview was a lie then ! I really don't know either of them so i can't ask ,
col . ADKINS , from what i have read he did advocate point shooting at close range ! as distance grew he got on the sights !
The bottom line is you must practice what you wish to use to defend yourself if you really wish to have a chance or as Clint Eastwood said do ya feel lucky ? Its your life !
when we hunt we call it buck fever when we miss , in a gun fight ya might not live to call it anything !
if you have never competed or practiced as i laid out above i don't expect you to see the point ! But as you practice in a timed event you learn to look for the sight ! at some point you see with out looking for it as your eyes and hands have taken over and the sight appears as you complete you draw and aim as a reflex , at that point you will most likely do the same under pressure with out thinking , you are reacting !
the biggest fear then is being to fast to react !
lets face it contrary to popular belief all American males were not born able to shoot , drive a manual transmission or be Mr. right to every woman born ! with at least two out of three we can practice and get better , with women you are on your own !

[S.S.]

I do not know how many of you have actually had shots fired in anger at you but I can assure
you that cover is your first Idea. not your front sight. I have exchanged fire on more than one occasion.
been shot twice and stabbed once. (Beiruit was a crazy Place) .I like some of the unarmed defensive
techniques that have been shown on that show, but some of the weapons drills seemed downright silly.
If you are interest in really learning armed combat techniques, study how the Mosaad in Israel train.
They are the best in the world in close quarters. I know you are thinking, must not work too well,
 "been shot twice and stabbed once" Well, by actual after action investigation, I have had 42 rounds fired at me
by count of shell casings. 40 missed. bear in mind that 15 of these came from a drunk with a marlin
semi-auto .22. he never even managed to hit the car I was behind. but not for lack of trying!
And YES! most police officers are no where near trained well enough! I know of none that I cannot best at the
range. Even at my age!

[Old Griz]

I've mentioned this before, but we had a situation here where two felons were in the back seat of a squad car and one had a gun. He shot one officer, the bullet grazing the side of his head, knocking him out. The officer on the driver's side was shot in the ear as he was bailing out of the car. He ran to the back of the car and jumped up on the trunk and began firing at the two men in the back seat. He emptied his 15 +1 rounds through the back window, then loaded a fresh mag and fired 15 more. That's 31 rounds, and he didn't hit either one of the two bad guys. He did, however, provide a way for them to get out of the car now that the rear windshield was gone. The cop takes off running, and the thugs take off in the police car. They dumped the wounded cop out a block away and abandoned the car after about a mile.

Poor training? Scared as hell? Yes to both.

Gosh, I surely hope that I could do better than that. Unless I shot myself, I sure couldn't do any worse!

[SHOOTALL]

so was the poor training not searching the criminal well enough ? , not shooting good enough ? bailing when attacked ?
were both not trained well enough or just one ? or was training over come by pure fear ? since the criminals shooting was less than stellar were they also poorly trained ?
I was not there and will not assume i know the answer , please feel free to shed some light !

[Old Griz]

Take your pick. 

[SHOOTALL]

stress !

[williamlayton]

I agree with shootall---stress.
I know from a number of situations from real life---none involving firearms---that stress can create a situation that allows you too react incorrectly, no matter the training----and then sometime one handles the stress correctly. Go figure.
It is true that no two situations are the same--and we aren't the same each and every time.
If you were under the constant stress of air combat then you learn to react better---sometimes.
Blessings

[deserthunter]

I really am not qualified to give advice......  Just my personal training schedule.....  I buy 2000 180gr lead 40's at a time, I load them lite with my Dillon reloader  RL500B....   I shoot 2 in the chest, one in the head..... When that batch is gone, I buy another.  Someday I might feel comfortable getting in a gun fight, I doubt it......  I like watching the program, but take it with a grain of salt....

[K.K]

I like the program. Massad Ayoob is a vetran law enforcement officer, and the staff at Gunsite has trained thousands. Like everyone, I take it with a grain of salt, but there is valuable information, training tips, and all around security measures that could benefit anyone. It beats watching Oprah!

[SHOOTALL]

there are many good trainers and tapes around . most if not all will tell you that a skill level must be attained along with stress management . Those that strive only to reach a skill level are short changing themselves . Some have cut down timed shooting , competition and other stress provoking exercises but that is an unwise choice . How do you access your level of skill ?
If you can't draw and fire under the pressure of people watching and hit your mark why would expect to when in a life or death confrontation ?
and opportunity to let you see what you can do under stress is a value .

[hpdrifter]

I watch PD TV; out of the corner of my eye.  I get rather tired of the same old stuff.  I'd venture to say you'll watch the first CD and linger around and watch the others kinda slowly, but, if I didn't have TOC, I'd prolly want to see them, if I really, really like or was interested in Person Defense Training.


Like a fellow said above, Massad A , is the best part; to me.