Lee FCD v seating a bullet on the lands?

[TargetTerror]

I've been loading pistol cartridges for a while, and am just getting into loading for my rifles. I keep reading that for optimal accuracy, bullets should be seated a few thousands off of the lands (provided it will fit in the magazine). The rationale, as I understand it, is that the lands hold the bullet in place and let pressure build - essentially what a firmer crimp in a pistol cartridge will do.

I also bought a Lee Factory Crimp Die for the rifle calibers I am going to load. I'm wondering, if I crimp the bullet, would it basically be redundant to seat the bullets on the lands? Is there any other benefit to seating it on the lands?

[Kurt L]

Most will not seat bullets to touch the lands as this can give pressure and head space trouble.
you are better off at 10 or 20 thousands or so off them.
they are seated into the lands for some reasons like, making improved and other cartridges.
they do this to fire form cases and build more pressure to blow the case out to fit the chamber walls.
but this is something that can cause big problems if you have a stiff load and jam it into the lands and fire it.
I would seat away from them and be safe and hunting type rifle you will not gain any real improvement by
putting them in the lands.

[TargetTerror]

OK, that makes sense.  But as far as producing a uniform initial resistance to build pressure, would a crimp do basically the same thing as seating on/slightly off the lands anyways?

[Kurt L]

What fire arm are we dealing with?
caliber?
What bullet are you planning to use?

Maybe someone can explain this better than I can to help you out.
To your last post yes and no.
 Let me try to explain, I am not the best with typing and etc.

Most people on a bolt or single shot don't use a crimp but do use one on a lever action
etc to keep the bullets from moving in the tube mag etc.
 any way the initial pressure built you speak of is or has many things that change it .

when you reload you try to get your neck tension as uniform as you can.
this is why many anneal the necks and also neck turn to get the uniform neck tension.

ok now if you reload and your neck tension is not uniform your ammo will not have the potential to be real accurate.

now if you crimp your uniform neck tension ammo with the same constant uniform crimp your ammo will have a potential to still be accurate.

But if you crimp un consistent neck tension ammo you are not fixing any thing you are just putting a crimp on poor ammo and the crimp WILL NOT WORK FOR A BAND AID TO FIX THIS PROBLEM.

also on crimping you must have uniform case length and neck thickness to work perfect.
you don't need to set into the lands to get your uniform pressure,again this is in the neck tension.
the seat close to the lands and their abouts is for accuracy not uniform pressure, and every gun has it's own spot that it likes.
some shoot great up close to the lands and some like a bit of a jump.

Again don't get me wrong or take this the wrong way but.
If you are asking on this you are not REAL SURE OF YOUR SELF ON SEATING IN THE LANDS.
this is not the same as a crimp.
you can very easy get high pressures with head space issues and seating with the bullet into the lands.
I would not recommend you do this!!!
you can run into trouble in a hurry doing this.
Yes some do this but mostly for fire forming cases to get a more consistent case blow out to fit the chamber.
example this is used for say a 25 Gibbs and to form your cases from 270Win cases.
I hope this helps you.

 

[Sweetwater]

What Kurt L said +1!!!

Seating to the lands is a dangerous game. Some rifles, but certainly not all,  do shoot a tad more accurately when the bullets are seated just off the lands. There is a HUGE difference in pressure between bullets seated touching the lands and bullets seated just off the lands. Few of us have a pressure lab available, so this is best left to the 'Big Guys' ie Sierra, Hornady, etc.

We CANNOT fix a load that is not up to our expectation with a crimp die. Doesn't happen that way. I'm not convinced there is a need for a crimp die when loading for a bolt gun. If the problem is the brass, then we have to fix the brass before we load it.

Kurt L wrote of problems in neck tension. This was a real problem in one of my bolt-action rifles. Could not get it to group consistently with anything. Sometimes it would be a couple inches at 100 yards. Sometimes we could not keep it on a paper plate at that distance. I read an article concerning 'manufacturing tolerances' regarding loading dies and the symptoms they reported sounded very familiar. Inconsistent velocities, variable grouping, etc. I felt it was worth the gamble and bought a new sizing die for that caliber. End of problem. I took previously sized brass and ran it through the new sizer. The results were instantaneous. The brass felt like they were being sized for the first time. This may or may not be your situation.

Note: I do use the Lee FCD in all my Leverguns and my revolvers. I like it for them. It has a purpose. That purpose does not exist in my bolt-action rifles. My opinion based on over 40 years of reloading, experimenting, and reading that of others.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[TargetTerror]

thanks for the responses!  Very interesting.  I plan to load for a few rifles and calibers.  I have a sporterized Remington 1917 in 30-06, and a Handi rifle in 22 Hornet, 30-30, and 45-70.  It sounds like neck tension in rifles is similar to crimping in straight walled pistol cases as far as consistency and accuracy are concerned.  In that regard, i can see how a small pinch at the mouth could not make up for a sloppy fit along the entirety of the case.

Given the potential for a huge pressure spike, I think I'll begin by seating the bullets way off of the lands, to the lengths specified by the load books.

[Sweetwater]

Sounds like a good, safe way to start. THEN...if your accuracy isn't what you'd hoped for...then is when you start switching primers or altering the seating depth of the bullet a little at a time, checking your brass to make sure all is consistent with what you are doing. Let your rifle talk to you. It will tell you what it likes and doesn't like. It all comes with time and patience. You may be using a powder it doesn't like or a particular bullet brand or shape. Every component plays a part and not all rifles like all components. Don't despair of trying things. There are tons of data available for most cartridges. Even the Internet carries several websites where reliable load data can be downloaded for reference. The sites of The Big Guys (Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, etc) are most informative and free.

I have one rifle that has consumed more of my time than all the rest combined. Almost any load will go into 2" or less at 100yards. Not earth-shattering, but very rarely do I hit a combination that is any worse than that. Getting that same rifle under an inch has been a labor of love, and I have hit 2 loads out of hundreds that will hover at the inch mark. It was a long tedious process, and certainly not necessary for hunting accuracy, just a sort of accomplishment for my efforts. I have other rifles that are boring to load for because all their loads are near the inch mark. 2 of my rifles, both 25 caliber, will put all the bullets in the same hole at 50 yards.
Didn't trust myself at any longer distance than that! The old eyes just don't have it! LOL

Master the process, and you will be blessed.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[goodconcretecolor]

I have a Howa 30-06 and I found the FCD improved accuracy in most loads with a grooved(canalured) bullet. Just be sure the crimp is squarely in the groove. My favorite reloading procedure is to neck size with a Lee collet die, prime with the Lee autoprime charge with powder, seat a billet with the seating die that comes with the collet die and then use the FCD. Most of my favorite loads were improved with the FCD.