Primitive Handi Rifle

[petemi]

I was on another forum the other day and a guy asked what caliber would be best for his kind of hunting.  He said the Handi Rifle was now included in the primitive season in Mississippi.  I just KNEW he had to be wrong, but he included a link to that state's game laws, and sure enough it was there in black and white in the approved firearms, right along with the Shiloh Sharps and others.  I went into the gun room and told my Handi Rifles they were now primitive...........They laughed themselves right out of the cabinet; had to catch them before they fell on the floor.  One hit the floor, and was rolling around so much I had trouble grabbing it, and now her scope is out of whack!  My side hammers just stood there, muzzles gaping, looking insulted.

[coyotejoe]

I'm with the side hammers, SHOCKED!  But I suppose it is just accepting the reality that if inline, so called, muzzleloaders are permitted then why exclude singleshot centerfires? Should be quite a boon to H&R.

[fanner50]

I had heard that they were allowed if patented before 1900. Do you know if there are caliber restrictions?

[petemi]

Mississippi listed rifles only, not calibers.  It seemed the criteria was exposed hammers.  I love my Huntsman and my caplocks, but I still would like to see a week or so set aside here in Michigan for a true primitive season, just longbows and flintlocks with iron sights.  I have more confidence in my .50 Huntsman than I do in my Marlin 336 levergun in .30-30.

[quickdtoo]

The Mississippi primitive season has been discussed here many times since late 2006 when they were first enacted, legal Handi chamberings are .38 cal and bigger, that makes the 38-55(I know, but they're using it), 44mag, 444M, 450M, 45-70 and 500S&W legal firearms.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,109588.msg1098327332.html#msg1098327332

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,96564.msg1098240911.html#msg1098240911

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,103586.msg1098285589.html#msg1098285589

[Busta]

Mississippi listed rifles only, not calibers.  It seemed the criteria was exposed hammers.  I love my Huntsman and my caplocks, but I still would like to see a week or so set aside here in Michigan for a true primitive season, just longbows and flintlocks with iron sights.  I have more confidence in my .50 Huntsman than I do in my Marlin 336 levergun in .30-30.

Petemi,

I hope you don't take this wrong, but just take a minute to think about it. I am from Michigan also. I can hunt with my longbow/recurve/compound from October 1st through January 1st every year if I want to. Yes I do have to wear a orange hat during the November 15-30 Frearm Season and follow their rules (tag), but no biggie really. I have a couple (7) muzzleloaders (and 3 more on the Big Brown Truck right now ). I can hunt with any one of them or a slug gun during the whole Nov 15-30 Firearm Season. During the 2 week long December Muzzleloader Season I can use ANY one of my smoke poles that suits my fancy for that particular day. During the December Late Antlerless Season, I can use longbow/recurve/compound/slug gun/ any one of my muzzleloaders.

I hope you don't take offense to what I just typed, but I hunt with whatever legal method I feel like on any given day/week. It really matters not what "The other guy is hunting with", as long as his method is legal. Once I started thinking outside the box, my hunts became much more enjoyable. After all, I am hunting for my enjoyment, the other guy is hunting for his enjoyment.

Did you know in Michigan, during our "Muzzleloader Season", that Black Powder Handguns are also legal? There are still a lot of people that either don't believe it or just plain don't know.

Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
    During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black power handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31578--,00.html 

That is not just muzzleloading handguns but Black Powder Cartridge handguns (six-shooters, Encores, Contenders) as well. I have yet to run into anyone during the muzzleloader season carrying any of the handguns, so I know I haven't ruined his hunt nor has he ruined mine. I guess what I am trying to say is He's happy and I'm happy, and we never met.

Back to the original subject, yes the Handi's that Tim pointed out are legal in MS. The NEW Knight KP1 45-70 is also legal in Mississippi due to them utilizing the over 100 year old Wurfflein patent. You don't think they wanted to miss out on their piece of the pie, do ya? I'm sure we will see more in the near future.
http://www.knightrifles.com/PressRoom/Releases/History_Meets_Technology_In_The_KP1_Wurfflein.htm

[quickdtoo]

Busta makes a very good point, hunt with whatever you have that's legal and you enjoy!! Of the last 15yrs that I've hunted, missed a couple due to health issues, I've hunted 8 or 9 yrs with a flintlock in the modern rifle season cuz I enjoy the challenge and it's just plain fun!! Our muzzleloader seasons stink, so to enjoy the flinter and be legal, I just used it during the regular season and killed several deer with it, more than anyone else hunting in our group and they were all hunting with centerfire rifles ta boot!! 

Tim

[vinpar092]

What's nice about Miss.'s regulation is as long as it was firearm season, all I had to do was grab my 45-70. I hunted with every hunt except for the last day that I hunted, I shot a decent 8 with my '06. Everyone kept asking when was muzzleloader and I said, "Don't know/Don't care, I got my 45-70 Handi.

Vince

[petemi]

I and my friends hunt smokepoles, both traditional and inline through both seasons, and bowhunt as well, but I believe the "primitive season" has been turned into a joke.  It is just an extension of the rifle season.  I feel my .50 Huntsman stainless is superior to my Marlin 336 .30-30.  Here in Michigan, we can well afford to spare a week or so out of a 3 month long bow season.  I don"t, but a lot of people enjoy hunting with period weapons in period dress, and I think they should get an opportunity to do it, without the galloping horde in the woods and having to wear hunter orange..









ss

[beerhunter]

I live in Michigan, and I use my long bow all bow season and if you want to get dressed up in traditional clothing when hunting its your camp dress as you like as for black powder season just make a blase orange trappers cap and you have your orange requirements.( All the ignorant Yahoo shooters are out of the woods by the time black powder season comes its ether too cold or thay just cant stand the thoght of having only one shot. . I also use my muzzle loader during gun season and black powder. I dont think that we need a special season, our deer season it extremely long here, and we don't need the government stepping in to tell us whats best for us. We can chose on what we want to use its just personal preference. 

[Down South]

Petemi, I’m the guy from the other forum. The question about which rifle was posted here on Greybeard as well. I may or may not hunt primitive arms season with my new Handi since I’m primarily a bow hunter even during regular hunting season. I wanted a Handi just in case that I decided to use it. I basically just wanted a Handi Rifle and was wondering which one would be the better rifle. I did kill three deer with my bow this year. One was a nice 10-point pictured below.

[petemi]

That's a beautiful deer!  I hope you enjoy your Handi as much as I do mine.  I've got 3 new barrels on order now.

[knight0334]

I dont know why the side hammer Sharps would be insulted....  The center hammer Handi type design is older than the Sharps by about 8-10 years.

[MS Mule]

Mississippi House bill # 560 passed 120 to 2. It has now been sent to the Senate which has refered it to the Senate  Game and Fish committee. This bill if it becomes law will allow guns .38 caliber and above that were designed after 1900 and offer interchangeable barrels (Ex. T/C Encore) to be used during Mississippi's primitive weapons season for deer.

I predict a shortage of Encore barrels chambered for .405 Win.

[AZHoosier]

In Arizona we have three basic seasons. Rifle, Archery and HAM (Handgun, Archery and Muzzleloader) We have the lottery system for all hunts except you can guy over the counter tags for Deer Archery Only. HAM is restricted to the three of course. Archery is restricted to  archery of course. Rifle season, shoot what you bring. For big game, deer, elk, etc you must have a center fire rifle. I think that they should be more specific for that. I you have any center fire handgun you can go big game hunting with it. But from what I've seen so far in my years here common sense has actually prevailed. Pretty much anyway.
I don't know if I agree with Mississippi's new law or not. But, I'm sort of a traditionalist. I don't think the "new" in-line muzzleloaders are "muzzleloaders" either. Flint or cap (on the side) is my idea. I also believe that they should have two archery hunts, one for compounds and one for recurves and long bows. So far, we aren't required to wear orange. Lots of people do though. Myself included. To many "sound" shooters out there.

[coyotejoe]

I dont know why the side hammer Sharps would be insulted....  The center hammer Handi type design is older than the Sharps by about 8-10 years.

Huh? How's that? The Sharps was patented in 1848, the first 200 rifles were produced in 1849 and the first government order for 200 carbines came in January of 1852. Sharps worked constantly to improve the design with new models coming out ever year or two but they all were basically true to the original design, the improvements being in the details such as the priming system and breech seal design.

[knight0334]

I dont know why the side hammer Sharps would be insulted....  The center hammer Handi type design is older than the Sharps by about 8-10 years.

Huh? How's that? The Sharps was patented in 1848, the first 200 rifles were produced in 1849 and the first government order for 200 carbines came in January of 1852. Sharps worked constantly to improve the design with new models coming out ever year or two but they all were basically true to the original design, the improvements being in the details such as the priming system and breech seal design.

I was referring to the cartridge design, not so much as the overall patterns, since the discussion was over the use of cartridge based single-shot rifles - not muzzle/breech loading loose powder rifles.

[oleman]

  Hey Guys

   I wanted to answer one of your questions. The cartridge must have also been pre 1900. The .45 /70, .38/40 etc. You cannot use a Handi-Rifle in .44 mag or .444 because the cartridges are post 1900.

    Oleman
    Baker, La.

[quickdtoo]

  Hey Guys

   I wanted to answer one of your questions. The cartridge must have also been pre 1900. The .45 /70, .38/40 etc. You cannot use a Handi-Rifle in .44 mag or .444 because the cartridges are post 1900.

    Oleman
    Baker, La.

That's not true, the law applies to the type of weapon and being .38 cal or bigger, not the chambering, that's been discussed before at length.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,109588.msg1098327205.html#msg1098327205

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12797&SearchTerms=44,mag

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24495&SearchTerms=44,mag

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24598&SearchTerms=44,mag

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10913

This an approved list that we have for the new public notice on the breechloading sigle shot rifles, kind or type manufactured before 1900 with an exposed hammer, .38 cal or larger.

This list is by no means exclusive. This is just a list comprised of commonly available rifles.

SINGLE SHOT BREECHLOADING RIFLES WHICH ARE PRIMATIVE WEAPONS:

Sharps rifles or replicas
Reminton Rollingblock rifles or replicas
Ballard rifles
Maynard rifles or replicas
Burnside carbines
Frank Wesson rifles
Remington Hepburn rifles
M1873-1888 Springfield (trapdoor) Rifles and Carbines and replicas
Snider (British) rifles or replicas
Wesson & Harrington 1871 Rifles
New England Firearms or Harrington & Richardson Handi Rifles
Winchester M1885 Hi Wall or Lo Wall rifles or replicas (Also Browning B78 or 1885)

SINGLE SHOT BREECHLOADING RIFLES WHICH ARE NOT PRIMATIVE WEAPONS!!!!

Ruger Number 1 and Number 3 (no exposed hammer)
Thompson Center Contender or Encore Carbines (designed after 1900)
Mossberg SSi Single Shot Rifle (no exposed hammer and designed after 1900)

http://home.mdwfp.com/wildlife.aspx

PRIMITIVE WEAPONS
"Primitive firearms" for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double barreled muzzle-loading rifles of at least .38 caliber; single shot, breech loading, cartridge rifles (.38 caliber or larger) of a kind and type manufactured prior to 1900, and replicas, reproductions or reintroductions of those type rifles; and single or double-barreled muzzle-loading shotguns with single ball or slug. All muzzle-loading Primitive Firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with either percussion caps or #209 shotgun primers or flintlock ignition. Breech loading single shot rifles must have exposed hammers and use metallic cartridges. Cartridges may be loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. Scopes of any magnification are allowed on primitive weapons. Sidearms are not allowed during primitive weapon season.

[Down South]

That's not true, the law applies to the type of weapon and being .38 cal or bigger, not the chambering, that's been discussed before at length.

That is true. Anything .38 or larger as long as it's on a weapon design dating back to the time period 1895 and before I think.
I don’t live in Ms and I don’t hunt there very often. I haven’t even used a muzzle loader since the early 80’s even though I own one. I probably will use my Handi to hunt with. La and Ark are supposed to follow what Ms is doing as far as primitive weapons are concerned in the near future. I wanted a rifle that I could hunt with but more I wanted a rifle that I could cast my boolits for. I’m just getting into casting and I cast a lot of handgun boolits. All of my rifles are built for super sonic velocities and casting is somewhat out of the question for them. The 45/70 is just the ticket I was looking for.
BTW, I got my Handi 45/70 today. I’ll try to get some range time tomorrow or the day after.

[quickdtoo]

There appears to be a bill in the MS legislature right now moving to make some modern single shot centerfires legal, IE TC Encore, apparently the state is getting even more aggressive in getting the deer population under control thru normal hunting seasons as opposed to culling.

Tim

http://www.mdwfp.com/FORUMS/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=403305&TOPIC_ID=41991&FORUM_ID=26

[MSP Ret]

What a difference some distance, and some common sense, makes in decision making. Here in Mass where H&R's are made we cannot use either a Huntsman or a Sidekick during the Primitive season for deer, try to explain that....<><....

[knight0334]

What a difference some distance, and some common sense, makes in decision making. Here in Mass where H&R's are made we cannot use either a Huntsman or a Sidekick during the Primitive season for deer, try to explain that....<><....

pffffft...  you're lucky you even allowed to own a front stuffer in an assembled state in Mass. lol

[petemi]

That's true, they can only assemble and use them during the Joint MA and NY Primitive Season for Politicians not doing their jobs; out campaigning instead of working.

[Sourdough]

Someone needs to point out that in-lines were patented back in the 1600s (I believe that was the date I saw) in Germany.  And also built here in America during colonial times.  In-lines are just as old as side-hammer percussion guns, they just did not catch on due to their being more complex, and harder to manufacture.  Plus people were already used to the side-hammer Flintlocks, so they were more acceptable to side-hammer percussion guns.

[Dillohide]

Don't think you want to get the "in-line" / "traditional" thing started here  . I for one am a cap-lock guy and know people who fault me for not being a flint-lock guy. I'm just happy that Texas finally put in a muzzle loader only season ... doe and spikes for two weeks after regular season ends. Only rule is that it loads from the muzzle. Doubt we'd ever do a primitive season for anything else since the regular season last an average of 2 + months depending on county, not to mention bow season before and muzzle-loaders after. All together a good 3 months of deer hunting. 

[MSP Ret]

 It seems that this liberal bastion of Massachusetts, one of the original colonies in the fight for freedom(s) and democracy (not to be confused with democrats) may also be where the end of freedoms as we know than will begin as well. it seems to be happening already with our freedoms being so abruptly curtailed here with no recourse or honest representation....<><....

[hotrod0872]

tim your right about it being any .38cal or larger cal.
.44,444.45-70,500 are all legal in ms.
this is from someone who lives and hunts in ms and called gamewarden to make sure!!!!!!

[quickdtoo]

If you read the 44mag link I posted, there were others that called too, Stuffit in particular on the 44mag and 450 Marlin, but the other links I posted are direct from the Mississippi Dept of Wildlife, Fisheries and Parks website, direct from the horse's mouth, so to speak!!

Tim

http://www.mdwfp.com/Level2/Wildlife/pdf/Final/2005_Archive/Primitive%20Weapons.pdf