Where to Place a Bullet in a Bear (Part Two)

[Drilling Man]

  Did anyone here see that guy shoot the brown bear this last weekend (saturday evening) on the outdoor channel???

  That guy hit that bear "exactly" where i keep saying is the best place a bullet on a bear...  Did anyone here see how that bear reacted when he pulled the trigger???

  DM

[Two Bears]

Nope....

Fill us in, how did he react?

[Drilling Man]

Nope....

Fill us in, how did he react?

  "Properly!!"    Bang flop!

  DM

[pastorp]

DM, so where was the bullet placement? Byron

[Drilling Man]

  Byron,

  Go read "Where to place a bullet in a bear" part 1 further down on this forum, and read the answers there...

  DM

[pastorp]

DM, I scroled through 6 pages and did not find that title. What I'm doing works fine, I shoot they drop. Guess I don't want to know bad enought to scroll throught endless pages. Byron

[Drilling Man]

  Sorry Byron,

  It was on this page, just a few threads down....  http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,122268.0.html

  DM

[bearfat]

I'm still confused about this shot and exactly where the bullet should be placed and what position the bear should be in. Can anyone come back to the original post where we have some new pictures up?

Or elaborate on these two pics and the red dot. Where should the red dot exactly be and what is the best body positon?




Apparently this is the wrong body position. And never really got a comment about the red dot.

[ORsouthpaw]

If you put a bullet in either one of those red dot areas you have a high chance of  breaking the shoulder. I originally posted the second picture on the other post, take note of the distance between the vitals and the shoulder blade. As far as actual body position that is preferred I can only offer that the answer typically given on game animals is that the inside leg should be forward. I'm not sure it matters quite as much on a bear because when the inside leg moves forward the shoulder blade drops down but not enough to cover the heart. Which by the way is what I recommend that you shoot for. I took the shoulder shot and saw no evidence that my bear was in any mood to go BANG-FLOP! An hour later however when I shot him though the vitals he went 15ft and dropped.

Take a look here: http://www.theidahosportsman.com/bear%20anatomy.pdf
Cut and paste if needed

let us know if your still wondering

[bearfat]

  That guy hit that bear "exactly" where i keep saying is the best place a bullet on a bear...

I'm trying to figure out "exactly" where that spot is. Is it the red dots on my pics or....lower, higher, left, right?

What's the best angle too? Broadside, quartering towards me or quartering away from me.

[blackbear]

With adequate firepower, through the shoulder when both shoulders are lined up. The heart / lung area is always the ultimate target. Under the proper conditions the shoulder shot is very effective. If the hunter does not know bear anatomy or does not understand how , why or when to take a shoulder shot he should not do it. The "spot" to aim varies depending upon the position of the bear and the hunters elevation in relation to the bear.

[1sourdough]

 I don't want to enter any argument but here's my story. I was on my 1st BB hunt last Fall with my 300WSM & my relative who set up the hunt told me to do my best to not wound any bears & have them run off. I put my bullet close to where that red dot is from an elevated stand with the bear cruched down. It was not a monster bear but after a momentary collapse the bear took off. It crashed about 50 yrds into thick cover then gave the death moan. I was kinda expecting a collapsed bear. I got enough to do the job but next time I plan to hold out for the big one or no bear.

[bearfat]

With adequate firepower when both shoulders are lined up. The "spot" to aim varies depending upon the position of the bear and the hunters elevation in relation to the bear.

Here's where I'm still uncertain based on everything I'm reading:

It does look like if the bullet hits at or slightly above the midline horizontally on the shoulder blade (even a light bullet) you may shock the spine and game over for the bear, a hit too high or too low below the midline of the shoulder blade (scapula) and it's a coin toss as to what damage is going to happen. And once you read the sentence below in blue you'll see why the direct midline shot being the best may not be true either.

An individual taking the "shoulder shot" needs to realize BOTH SHOULDER BLADES (SCAPULA) must be hit and it must be big medicine that hits both shoulders. And once the bear is angling (quartering) slightly you greatly decrease the odds of hitting both shoulder blades which YOU MUST HIT.

According to JJ Hack whom Graybeard recommended as a knowledgeable bear hunter/guide having been involved in the taking of most likely over 1000 bears and jk30-06 posted a direct link to the subject JJ Hack stated,   "The scapula can move nearly a foot under the skin in every direction, it's loose under there and moves all around depending upon the stride or reach of the animal. Making this your aimpoint causes various concerns depending upon the way the animal is standing. The bones on the right does not alway match the bones on the left either. They are fully independent of each other."

So apparently even a perfect postcard stance broadside may not have the shoulder blades aligned which I think we are all in agreement must be hit...both shoulder blades with big medicine.

Where to place a bullet in a bear Part one and Part two have had over 2300 views. When I originally started the post my intent was to clarify:    What I consider bad information circulating about, "Aim for the bears shoulders and bust him up good with the 1st shot."

I didn't like this shot in the beginning of the post and I like it less now after reading everything. I understand why and how it works particularly with big bears and big guns but I would venture to say it is a tricky shot to take with many things that could go wrong.

There might even be a guy out there who has only taken the shoulder shot all of his life and had 100% knock down and out for the count with it. All I can say is my old man drove his car for 40 years too, usually drunk, and never got a ticket or had an accident. The luck of the irish it is.

 

[bearfat]

I don't want to enter any argument but here's my story. I was on my 1st BB hunt last Fall with my 300WSM & my relative who set up the hunt told me to do my best to not wound any bears & have them run off. I put my bullet close to where that red dot is from an elevated stand with the bear cruched down. It was not a monster bear but after a momentary collapse the bear took off. It crashed about 50 yrds into thick cover then gave the death moan. I was kinda expecting a collapsed bear. I got enough to do the job but next time I plan to hold out for the big one or no bear.

I went back to your post before you went on the hunt and you apparently stuck to your decision of where you had planned to place the shot. It sounds like you hit one shoulder blade and the Partition and or bone fragments did it's work into the lungs. You must of been going on advice from someone...was it the relative or was it what you read on the posts here?

Based on what you have read and now with personal experience where would you tell a new bear hunter to aim for? The lungs or shoulder shot?

[blackbear]

Where would you aim to shoot a deer?

[bearfat]

I want the lungs.

[Cabin4]

If you look at how the bears anatomy is structured, the vitals are not directly behind the shoulders on a broad side shot. As I have said to all the "shoulder shot" crowd, the best shot is the quartering away shot. Hit the vitals and then you have a chance to take out the opposing leg/shoulder. Those who espouse the broad side shoulder shot to "break them down" are just factually incorrect. The vitals are NOT directly behind the shoulder, so a broad side shot at the shoulder dramatically reduces your chances of killing the bear.

You aim for the vitals, not the shoulder. Aim to kill the bear, not wound him so you can "Break Them Down", then follow up with a kill shot. Those who would recommend a shoulder shot on a bear are providing bad advise or it shows a complete lack of basic research. Anyone can look at the bears anatomy and know, you don't aim to put a bullet on an animal where there are no vitals in the bullets path or where there are significant barriers between the entry point and the vitals.

Perhaps this thread will finally put this issue to rest. Aim for the vitals................

[Drilling Man]

If you look at how the bears anatomy is structured, the vitals are not directly behind the shoulders on a broad side shot. As I have said to all the "shoulder shot" crowd, the best shot is the quartering away shot. Hit the vitals and then you have a chance to take out the opposing leg/shoulder. Those who espouse the broad side shoulder shot to "break them down" are just factually incorrect. The vitals are NOT directly behind the shoulder, so a broad side shot at the shoulder dramatically reduces your chances of killing the bear.

You aim for the vitals, not the shoulder. Aim to kill the bear, not wound him so you can "Break Them Down", then follow up with a kill shot. Those who would recommend a shoulder shot on a bear are providing bad advise or it shows a complete lack of basic research. Anyone can look at the bears anatomy and know, you don't aim to put a bullet on an animal where there are no vitals in the bullets path or where there are significant barriers between the entry point and the vitals.

Perhaps this thread will finally put this issue to rest. Aim for the vitals................

  Maybe i don't know chit about where to place a bullet in a bear, but i base everything i've written on my 25 years in Alaska hunting and harvesting blk. and brown bears...

  Perhaps you have more experience than i do, and all the ones i've shot really aren't dead???

  ONCE AGAIN, a high shoulder shot breaks the shoulders and damages the spinal cord...  They are down for the count...and you don't need a cannon to do it either...

  DM

[bearfat]

Is the red dot on the correct location on pic below or ...higher, lower, left, or right?



 

[bearfat]

 a high shoulder shot breaks the shoulders and damages the spinal cord...  They are down for the count...and you don't need a cannon to do it either...

  DM

Here's my conclusion about the shoulder shot. The reasoning and history is in the taking of huge bears. It can be extremely effective if placed correctly by an experienced rilfeman/hunter. But it can be a tough shot to make due to the small window of exact bullet placement needed.

Among bear hunters this information has been passed down over the years. It has become "gospel" among some as the primary shot to take, unfortunately, specific information on where to take the shot has not filtered down. Bear hunters are taking this shot and wounding bear because they are not being instructed properly and are simply aiming anywhere on the shoulder or what they think is the the "shoulder shot."
 
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The State of Alaska Fish and Wildlife has the following to say about bears and bullet placement:
"Except for big bears, there is no need to keep shooting at an animal after it has been well hit once in the lungs. On big bears keep shooting until the bear is down and stays down. Big bears are nothing to mess around with trying for that “one shot kill” so popular in sporting magazines."  Quote by Dave Kelleyhouse (Alaskan Fish and Wildlife),. Link: ADF&G http://wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=hunting.biggame_intro

Where is the best shot placement? The correct answer is the heart-lung vital zone.
Alaskan fish and Game Department link: http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index.cfm?adfg=huntalaska.shot

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See now I'm confused by the Dave Kellyhouse comment. He says to keep shooting the big bears but he advises not to take the one shot kill even though he doesn't specify where or what that shot is. But if a guy has an opportunity to make a one shot kill shouldn't he take it with a big bear? And again what is the one shot kill he is referring to?

Take look at the following chart:



It gives percentages of the vitals exposed with different angles. What was extremely interesting I thought and what you can't quite read is down on the bottom right and underlined: "Aim at the center of the shoulder."

I found that particular chart on two different web sites. Someone had tweaked the above chart and added the comment about aiming for the center of the shoulder.

What's my point?      CONFUSION

There is massive confusion about the shoulder shot. How it works, why it works, and where to place the bullet.

If you've read though both Part One and Part Two of "Where to place a bullet in a bear" I hope you have seen the confusion. Some like the shoulder shot but know how to take it. The shoulder shot is just not anywhere on the shoulder. And it is most effective when as drillingman stated, "breaks the shoulders and damages the spinal cord."

The vast majority of bear hunters take the lung shot for a reason. Bigger target.

[blackbear]

bearfat, How many bears have you wounded and lost? You seem to spend a lot of time contemplating this one shot.

[Cabin4]

    ONCE AGAIN, a high shoulder shot breaks the shoulders and damages the spinal cord...  They are down for the count...and you don't need a cannon to do it either...

  DM
[/quote]

Hmmmm... seems as though the target has changed now with the shoulder shot crowd. The original argument for the shoulder shot has always been that the heart/lungs are behind it. Now, the anatomy of the bear clearly shows the heart/lungs are not directly behind the shoulder from the broad side, and now the target is the SPINAL CORD??

Good grief....... why not just shoot the at the heart and kill the dam animal???  I'm just not getting all this shoulder shot stuff!! Lets try a new one. I think you should aim for the rear hind quarter on a bear. This way you can break the bear down and severe the major artery in the rectum area. This may be capable of killing the bear so this should really be one of the recommended shots in my opinion. Another option might be in my opinion, to sit in your tree stand and hold the gun over your rear shoulder with the bear to your rear, and with the use of a mirror attempt shooting the bear by ricocheting the bullet off of a near by rock with the intended entry point being the under-belly area. If you do this the bullet travel up and severe the spinal cord from this angle. Either one of these is extremely effective and will maybe kill the bear and therefor in my opinion the recommended shots instead of shooting the bear in the unobstructed path of the heart/lung area. Seems to make perfect sence....

[bearfat]

bearfat, How many bears have you wounded and lost? You seem to spend a lot of time contemplating this one shot.

I lost one around 1987. I shot him in the butt so that shot won't work cabinfour: "Sever the major artery in the rectum area."   

I've made my dislike of the shoulder shot known when I started Part One of this post last July. It definitely has been a focal point of those for and those against it. My first quote:   There is what I consider bad information circulating about, "Aim for the bears shoulders and bust him up good with the 1st shot."

  Since then over 2500 views have been made of the two posts. Lots of guys are interested in this subject.

Anyone wanting information on the shoulder shot can after reading through both parts one and two make an excellent decision on the shot. I've learned something from the posts. We got pictures, and some excellent pro and con information. I believe we have excellent info on how and where to make the shoulder shot.

I just feel it is a tough shot to accurately make, tougher than a head shot. Those of you making the shot successfully my hat is off to you. Your a better shot than me. But if your just an average shot maybe the better choice would be the bigger target...the lungs.

If your up in Alaska going for really big bear and have a really big gun maybe the shoulder shot is the norm up there. Do what I did and Google the following phrase:

“bullet placement bear”

I concentrated on Alaska and big bear and while I found  some info on the shoulder shot, clearly the majority used and preferred the lung shot. The shoulder shot “to bust them up” appears to be best used on big bear with big guns. And while it apparently works excellent for some it has not for others from what I read.

My opinion is the shoulder shot has filtered down to the lower 48 States and wrongfully been promoted without proper instruction. I believe most guys could make a better head shot than a shoulder shot. 
If your making shoulder shots successfully...I'll say it again your a better shot than me and that's a fact.

But if your new to bear hunting or just an average shot my advice is go for the lungs. Bigger target.   

[blackbear]

The photo showing two red spots above is a perfect example of no good heart / lung shot opportunity. The larger red area shows the lungs and heart being covered by massive muscle and shoulder.

[bearfat]

The upper red dot would be the high shoulder shot discussed that would shock the spine...perhaps I'm wrong since no one that takes the shoulder shot would actually comment on my red dots in previous posts.

But I  think you bring up a good point I'd like to discuss as to why the lower red area might be a bad shot for some to make:             bullet construction


While I would like the left leg to be moved forward I wouldn't hesitate to take the shot using the bullets I use, some of drillingman's fav's...Nosler 200 gr Partition.

In fact I could have moved the lower red area even more to the left according to the chart above because the chart feels 100% of the vitals are exposed. I've blown up the chart a tad to read.



I am being thrown a little for a loop here though. You shoulder shot guys are using good good heavy constructed bullets to bust up both shoulders right...but you don't think you can penetrate one shoulder and hit the lungs in the pic above?

Yikes...I think we're really confusing guys now.

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   We are debating guys so please don't take it personal that I'm attacking you. I am going to ratchet up my debate points though and hopefully stay away from what I refer to as "seagull posts" where they fly in, crap all over someone and fly out.

You made an excellent point blackbear about the broadside above not being a good shot. But like I say we are debating and I'm going to throw a few zingers your way...don't take it personal.         

[Drilling Man]

Hmmmm... seems as though the target has changed now with the shoulder shot crowd. The original argument for the shoulder shot has always been that the heart/lungs are behind it. Now, the anatomy of the bear clearly shows the heart/lungs are not directly behind the shoulder from the broad side, and now the target is the SPINAL CORD

  Who's origional argument???  Not mine, i haven't changed what i've been saying one bit...

  DM

[blackbear]

Sounds like cabin fever to me. I'd rather talk about bears and bear hunting than waste time arguing about shots some don't understand. Too few hunting seasons left for this garbage.

[bearfat]

You may be right blackbear...we are all fellow brothers out there in the field with a love of hunting the giant black rat (brown in some cases.)

Perhaps it is best to stop the bickering and call a truce. I understand more about the shoulder shot and how/why it works and my goal was to get others to learn more too.


Last fall when I was deer hunting with my brother it reached a pitched frenzy with our being at exactly different political beliefs. We were discussing a specific "happening" and it was clear he simply believed what he was saying as did I. No yelling or name calling was going to sway either of us. We believed what we believed.

Individuals will make their own mind up about "Where to place a bullet in a bear." We've presented our reasons and believe them. I hope we do not fall in the trap of disagreeing with one another always whenever we post on different subject elsewhere.

Our real enemy are those who would stop our sport and take our guns away.

I'm done with this post. It looks like we need new material anyway no one else is responding.

TRUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FASTMIKE0721]

LMAO