Cast Bullet Speed

[scout34]

I am trying to work up a 240gr SWC cast bullet load for deer.  What would be a good minimum velocity to try for?  I am trying to achieve pass through at up to about 75 yds.  Does anybody have any loads like this that they like?  Guns are a 29-2 and 329, both with 4" barrels.  I want to eventually work up to a 310 cast @ 1150, sort of like a Garrett, but want to get used to the recoil first.

[ought6]

I really like Elmer Keith's old recipe, but I understand that today's 2400 powder is too hot for 22 grains.  However, if you use a recent manual, you'll find dandy loads using 2400 and the Keith style bullet, like Lyman's 429421.  I'd shoot (pun intended) for around 1200 fps.  It should perform exactly as you desire.  BTW, Elmer used standard primers for his loads, not magnum.

[Cheesehead]

Would magnum primers cause pressure issues?

Cheese

[Ak.Hiker]

When you work up to the 310 grain loads I hope you do not plan on firing them in the 329. I bet the recoil would be terrible. As far as the 240 and 250 grain loads go I would keep them at about 1200 or so. In reading some of Elmer Keith's books I saw that a 250 at 1200 was all he really wanted. I think that is what his famous hot 44 Special load was getting.

[Lloyd Smale]

900 fps will do alot of killiing

[scout34]

I'm thinking that the 240-250gr @ 1200  would be a good deer load in the 329, while the 310 @ 1130 or so would be my own on the cheap copy of the Garrett loads for the 329.  Right now I'm shooting the 240s @ 1050 (10gr of Universal Clays) and recoil is not bad at all, though you do have to be very careful of your grip.  If it's out of place just a little bit it gives you a bit of a jolt.  I shot about 150rds of this mix yesterday and had no trouble, though my hand is a bit sore today.  Growing pains, and I may continue at this level for a while until I'm sure I can shoot it without flinching.  I am also going to put a set of cushioned X-frame grips on it.

I'm using WLP primers, and had some problems both with leading and with some shaving at the forcing cone.  I believe the leading is caused by the bullet (swaged Hornady), and the shaving didn't happen until late in the session when there may have been some build up.  Good thing I was wearing glasses.

[jhalcott]

  Be a good SCOUT and remember SAFETY first. Eye and ear protection should always be worn when using fire arms. I can't help smiling when I read ,"my hands a little sore today". In a few years you will have carpal tunnel and maybe a touch of Arthritis to deal with like I do. I don't need those massive bullets to kill deer and black bear any more. I've found out I can do it with 240 grain bullets at 1100 fps in a 44 mag super black hawk. I even use a 6.5JDJ with 120 grain bullets to cleanly take deer these days!  I'm not picking on you, just letting you know what the future holds. I've had pass thru's with bullets as light as 200 grains ,cast of linotype,gas checked and fired out of my ruger SBH. the ranges were from 25 to nearly 100 yards. I do NOT want to go back to those 300 grain loads at MAX velocity! I think they hurt me too much.

[Clodhopper]

I use the Lyman 429421, cast from wheel weights, at a muzzle velocity of a little over 1200 fps almost exclusively for the .44 mag.  I have killed numerous hogs with the load and had 100% one shot kills.  Most were head shots, which you can do with a .22 if you get the right angle and distance, but a couple were heart lung shots.  All the hogs died almost on the spot.  I also killed a couple of white tail deer with this same load.  I have not recovered a bullet yet!

I still don't see the need for the heavy bullets, 300 grain, unless you are trying to defend yourself from something "very" large and dangerous or your intended quarry is of the large and heavy type. 

[scout34]

I'm already finding out about some of the less durable body parts I seem to have inherited.  A year of 12 hour days standing on a Bradley turret floor while wearing 50lbs of body armor does wonders for your arches.  Add in a couple of IED hits that bounce your head off the turret wall and you've got some aches and pains that let you know you're alive in the truest sense of the word.

Maybe I've been hornswoggled into thinking that I need heavy loads.  If 240@1050 will do the trick to 75 yds then so be it, that is what I'll shoot.  Central TX deer are not known for their size and ferocity.

[jhalcott]

  Maybe I am wrong but I do NOT like hurting ME. After 35 years as a mechanic in a steel mill I have enough aches and pains. I have arthritis and carpal tunnel . I love shooting but have to say "What" a LOT. I went thru the phase of bigger is better, and got to where "just enough" is all I really need. One of my friends has to use a magnum for deer hunting,his wife kills one every year with an old beat up .308. I thank you for your service to country. Now relax and don't pound your self into a nervous wreck!

[Mikey]

I used to use the 429421 or the 429244, its gas checked cousin, over max charges of 2400 - 22 grains, I think.  I believe I also once read that the load old Elmer favored was not the 22 gn load but a 24 grain load (or maybe that was WW296) but that load is no longer recommended. 

Anyway, I shot a big bunch of those cast slugs at every dang velocity I could think of.  When my 29 wore a 6.5" bbl it loved the 240-245 gn slugs over 2400 loads.  For a couple of years I used a load recommended by a friend - 20 - 20.5 gns of 2400 under the same slug - very accurate and easy to shoot, would do the same to a whitetail that the heavier powder charge did. 

But, once I sent the revolver back to S&W for a shorter barrel both the 29 and I fell for the heavier weight slugs, in the 290 - 300 gn range.  Now she prefers a 300 gn cast SWC over 19.5 - 20 gns of H110/WW296.   JMTCW.  Mikey.

[blhof]

I've killed both deer and hogs with a 357max with 200 grain at around 1300fps with complete pass throughs.  I'm also getting arthritic in the right hand and full blown loads start me flinching after a few rounds.  Fired my son's Blackhawk with 45 cowboy loads and they were a pure joy to shoot.  My son wanted some power, so I loaded him some 250's at ruger specs; after 20 or so rounds, he was ready to go back to the cowboy loads for practice.  I load for him and usually load 70% cowboy and 30% full bore.  He wants to keep proficient and feel comfortable with the power loads, but he wants to do his volume shooting with the lighter stuff.  He just needs to remember to change his point of aim with the different loads.

[efremtags]

For that short barallel, I would keep velocity between 11-1200fps. This will avoid leading and minimize powder flash as that short barallel is not efficient. That will just about shoot through anything upto 250lbs. My buddy and I have taken 5 boar with a mild 1150FPS load out of a 5" 629 usinh keith 250gr.

Personaly I use 275 and 280GR WFN as I get  little more penetration without much more velocity. They also shoot to th same oint as hornady factory 300gr. The hornady BTW is really accurate to the point I wonder why I reload at all.

If you experience leading, try useing a gas check, or a different braand of ammo. Also maybe a .429 instead of a standard .430.

[Castaway]

 What Lloyd said, but use a good bullet.  You asked for a minimum load for pass through.  You can't go wrong with a Keith bullet of one of Veral's.  Don't get excited if occasionally a bullet doesn't make an inney and an outey.  Found that out with a 423 grain patched bullet, leaving the muzzle at 1800 f/s when it didn't exit a 100 pound Florida deer on a broadside shot at 100 yards.  By all rights, it should have made it through easily.  I've penetrated over 40" of deer from the rear to the front shoulder before and have never understood how the same load didn't exit 16" of soft tissue, but it happens.

[Catfish]

I`ve taken a pile of deer with the Sierra 240 gr. HP at 1250 fps and the only bullet that I did not get total pass through was a 135 yrds. shot on a 10 pt. buck. I hit him in the left rear and the bullet was just under the skin of the front right shoulder. With cast bullets that do not expand you should not need over 900 fps. would be my guess. I like to keep my velocity up to flatten the trajectory.

[Graybeard]

My advice would be to stop thinking in terms of jacketed bullets which need high velocity to expand and start thinking like a cast bullet shooter. Select a load that gives good accuracy and a velocity from 900 to 1050 fps and learn to shoot it well. You'll need no more.

[kennisondan]

HEY SCOUT   ;   do keep it slow and just heavy enough to get it done for what u will really shoot and the distance you will shoot it.. bilateral carpal tunnel, torn ligaments in shoulder and elbow of the shooting side is a bummer and adds a flinch while detracting from the fun of the shooting itself... bette to burn half as bright twice as long.. as they say...
take care of that bod and use it longer... I like heavy and slow 240 to 300 CAST LEAD at 950 to 1100 a lot more now than I used to think I did  and the 900 fps feel better all the time... may be the only way I can do it at all any more...
thanks for the brave service to our country... bless you brother...
dk

[okie john]

I’ve gotten pass-throughs on deer with a 240-grain SWC at 900 fps. This is much like original 45 Colt ballistics, which have been clobbering people, bears, horses, cattle, hogs, bison and just about anything else you can think of since 1873. It’s also where most 44 Magnum owners finally end up.

I use a 240 or 250 in the 44 Magnum. 10 gr. of Unique gives close to 1,200 fps in a 5" Classic M-629. I keep a box on hand since those are the ballistics that Elmer Keith wanted ammo makers to provide before they gave him the 44 Magnum at 1,400 fps. Mostly I shoot either 7 gr. of 231 or 6 gr. of Bullseye for 900 fps. If a bullet like that in the right spot won’t solve my problems, it’s time for a rifle.

This article http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12 is about the 45 Colt, but it’s interesting to hear John Linebaugh’s thoughts on a 250-grain bullet at 900 fps. It’s his daily carry load.

Thank you for your service, and I hope this helps.


Okie John

[millwright]

I like 240 250 gr over 10 gr unique in my 7 1/2 in barrel sbh.  Works for me.

[S.B.]

I used to use the 429421 or the 429244, its gas checked cousin, over max charges of 2400 - 22 grains, I think.  I believe I also once read that the load old Elmer favored was not the 22 gn load but a 24 grain load (or maybe that was WW296) but that load is no longer recommended. 

Anyway, I shot a big bunch of those cast slugs at every dang velocity I could think of.  When my 29 wore a 6.5" bbl it loved the 240-245 gn slugs over 2400 loads.  For a couple of years I used a load recommended by a friend - 20 - 20.5 gns of 2400 under the same slug - very accurate and easy to shoot, would do the same to a whitetail that the heavier powder charge did. 

But, once I sent the revolver back to S&W for a shorter barrel both the 29 and I fell for the heavier weight slugs, in the 290 - 300 gn range.  Now she prefers a 300 gn cast SWC over 19.5 - 20 gns of H110/WW296.   JMTCW.  Mikey.

Mike, you don't want to forget that the 2400 of Elmer's day isn't the same as the 2400 today? I've shot a lot of Lyman 429421 over 21 grains of Aliant 2400 for 1350 fps out of my 629-4 Classic and recoil was such that I knew I wasn't doing my guns any favors?

[kennisondan]

Scout : actually wanted to say that 8, 9, 10 grains of unique are a good step ladder of presssure and speed with 240 grainers... used just the 8 grains for many years for a daily load that did no harm on the user end of the gun.
dk

[scout34]

After reading all of the advice here, I think I may back down on my load of 10gr Universal.  9gr gets me in the high 900s and is easy to shoot, even in the 329.  Now to work on my accuracy.

Didn't get to shoot this weekend as KY got clobbered and we were in the field anyway.

[Mikey]

scout34:  I have just re-read a article by Brian Pearce in the Handloader Magazine from 2001 entitled Bullet Behavior.  Let me run a couple of quote from the article by you:  "A cast bullet of proper design, preferably with a generous flatnose or metplat, can best be described as 'old reliable', as it always penetrates deeply while creating a large, permanent wound channel.  This delivers the necessary blow to the nervous system and quickly depletes the blood supply.  For these reasons, cast bullets are always a top choice, particularly for larger game".....

"Generally, if we push a 250 gn Keith style bullet to 1,400'/sec, cast fairly hard with a Brindle hardness (Bhn) of 17 or 18, penetration is between 28-36 inches on large game.  This will vary depending on bone structure and the type of tissue encountered.  For comparison, the 270, 7mm mag or even 30-06, even with super-duper bullets, only penetrates approximately 14-22 inches on similar bone/muscle structure.  If we take the same 44 Magnum with a Keith style bullet and decrease the velocity to 1,000'/sec, penetration is reduced, but not by a big margin.  If deeper penetration is desired, a heavyweight cast bullet weighing 300-320 grains is the next logical choice.".......

I think you may be able to understand why many of us recommend a 250 gn load at only 1,000'/sec. or slightly better.  It gets the job done.   HTH.  Mikey.

[gstewart44]

I use 240 gr SWC cast from xray film lead backing.  A dentist had about 200 lbs of the stuff and gave it to me.   The backing is not pure lead, so it is no good for my muzzleloader but it casts to .430 every time.   It has never shown any signs of leading either.   I just lucked out with this one.   

I use 2400 powder at about 1100 fps in my SRH.   Every hog I have taken has been a pass thru. 

I use to shoot 300 gr but the pounding of my wrist and hand got old real quick. 

240gr/1100 fps and good placement is all you need.

[scout34]

Traded the 329 today.  I like how light it is to carry, but it is not much fun to shoot, and the sights suck.  Found a 6" 629 that will be a bit more comfy.

[S.B.]

I'm thinking that the 240-250gr @ 1200  would be a good deer load in the 329, while the 310 @ 1130 or so would be my own on the cheap copy of the Garrett loads for the 329.  I can shoot it without flinching.  I am also going to put a set of cushioned X-frame grips on it.

I'm using WLP primers, and had some problems both with leading and with some shaving at the forcing cone.  I believe the leading is caused by the bullet (swaged Hornady), and the shaving didn't happen until late in the session when there may have been some build up.  Good thing I was wearing glasses.

I'm very seriously considering the Lee 310 grainer myself and the Hogue X frame grips are what I use on both my 629-4 Classic and Mountain Gun.