What size of lathe and mill?

[cap187]

I'm retiring and looking at doing some shade tree gunsmithing.

What size lathe and mill would be the best for all around projects?

I know there are great debates between the older US made and new Asian machines, I'm not even going there yet.  I see Grizzly has 2 "Gunsmithing" lathes... the G4003G 12/36 and the G0509G 16/40.  Would the 12/36 be big enough for most projects or be just the minimum.  What is the ideal size?

I'd appreciate any insight you guys can give me. 

Thanks, Chuck

[John Traveler]

How much lathe you need depends on what you want to do with it.

For rifle barrel work, you want something to hold the barrel between centers, so a 12"x36" is probably minimum.  For pistol work only, something smaller can be made to work.

It's desirable to have a sufficiently large headstock spindle hole to pass a barrel blank.  With such capability, you can also do barrel threading and chambering without holding the work between centers.  Metric threading capability is important if you will be working on foreign manufactured rifles (Sako, Howa, etc).

Lathe choices start at the economy end with Atlas/Craftsman, Logan, South Bend, and go up to the larger industrial quality American made lathes.

Foreign-made lathes from China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and Europe.  Prices, quality, and after-market support varies widely.

Don't forget that to fully equip a lathe will cost as much as the bare bones lathe itself.

A similiar situation exists with mills.  You can do bare-bones basic milling using an attachment on a lathe, a mill-drill machine, or go full house with a dedicated Bridgeport-type machine.

[John Traveler]

Chuck,

I forgot to mention that it's a big help to browse and join the home shop machinists groups and the gunsmithing forums.

Lots of guys that have already gone through what we have, retired, and established themselves as hobbyists/machinists/gunsmiths.  Pick their brains and accumulated experience before committing to plunking down money on machines.

[KN]

I have an older Grizzly that is basically a G4016. It meets all my needs so far. Kind of noisy for a lathe but its a lot more accurate than I really expected it to be. Overall I am really pleased with it. As far as mill's go, a Bridgeport would be ideal. A lot of knock offs to choose from also.    KN

[oldandslow]

I read a gunsmithing book by Ralph Walker years ago. In he said you needed a minimum of a 12 X 36 lathe for gunsmith (rifle) work.

[trotterlg]

I have a 6 inch Atlas with a bed extension on it, I have done a dozen barrels, it is slow, but it gets the job done.  I have a milling attachment for it to cut ejector slots etc, just depends on how fast you want to work and how much money you have.  The distance between centers is the most important part, it would be nice to have a big hole through the spindel, but I haven't really missed it, You will need a steady rest and it would be good to have a travel rest, but you can do without it.  If I were to go cheap, I would go with one of the Atlas 10 or 12 inch lathes with the 48 inch bed, they can turn 30 inches between centers or so.  Larry

[cap187]

Thanks guys, that's a start.  

I've been reading the posts on some of the hobby machinists boards.  Just wanted to get a feel for what the minimum would be for gunsmithing (and yes I want to be able to do rifle barrels), so I can go from there.

Had a chance to run to Reno today, stopped at Harbor Freight (not that I'd consider buying one of their bottom line machines) just to see what they had and get an idea of size.  The 7" and 9" looked way too small and the 12/36 looked on the small side also.  Guess I should start planning on a 16/40 or I'll regret it later.  

Good point John on the cost of equipping a lathe.  What would you consider to be the absolute "have to have" tooling that doesn't come with the lathe?

Thanks, Chuck

[John Traveler]

Chuck,

I equipped my late model Atlas 12"x36" as follows: 

3-jaw chuck w/reversible jaws, 4-jaw chuck w/reversible jaws,  1/2" Jacobs tailstock chuck, Aloris QC type tool holder, boring bar set, left, straight, and right hand tool holders, kurling tool, faceplate w/dogs,  #3 and #2 MT centers, #2 live center, milling attachment, steady rest, follower rest, tool post grinder, taper attachment, and lots of tool bits!

Fully equipped to turn barrels, thread and chamber, true actions, grind receivers, mill sight slots, drill sight mounting holes, make sizing and forming dies, bore bullet molds, and everything else associated with hobby gunsmithing.

An Enco mill/drill with boring head, clamp set, R-8 collet set, drill sets, dial indicators, etc do the milling work.  I buy surplus bulk tooling (bits, drills, reamers, taps, dies) from Ebay and aerospace sources.

It would be best if you could find a complete lathe package with accessories, or better yet, locate a retired small gunshop owner.  A one-owner lathe is more likely to be well-cared for and have the tooling you want and need.

Feel free to send me email if you want more info or advice.

John

A production shop might laugh at my choice of lathe and mill, but they have served me well and faithfully.

[oldandslow]

John, I have the same lathe except it has Craftsman on the nameplate. I also have it equipped like you except I still have the original toolholder and no toolpost grinder. I bought it new in the '70's and it been a very good machine. If I could change anything about it I would like a larger diameter hole in the spindle.

[KN]

Keep an eye on the classifieds locally. You can find some good deals if you are patient. I got my lathe for about half what it cost new along with a slug of accessories. 3jaw, 4 jaw, face plate, steady rest,centers, drill chucks,cutters gal-lore, parting tools, knurling tools,etc. All of it was like new, including the machine. The guy bought it, didn't know how to use it and it just sat for several years. I missed out on a Grizzly mill, Bridgeport knock off, in the same condition for $1200. Some times you get lucky and some times you don't.    KN

[cap187]

John,

Atlas/Craftsman.... seems like people love them or hate them.  Guess it's a person's experience and perspective.  Sounds like they do what they're designed to do.  Your setup sounds like what I think I'll need.  You pretty much covered the things I want to be able to do.

Looked at a well used Husky 12/36 today with some tooling..... $1850, seemed high.  He ran it, lots of noises that didn't sound too good....

Found a local dealer that handles Birmingham, said they haven't had any problems with them because they're Taiwanese made instead of Chinese.  He also had a used Monarch 9" that looked interesting, but too small.

Got a lead on a guy that has several used 12/36's, haven't got hold of him yet.

KN,

That's the bomb!  A good deal on a slightly used with tools.  Sorry you missed out on the mill.  Right now I'm figuring out what I need and looking around... just getting my feet wet, not ready to jump in.  It's a big learning curve, but I'm like a dog with a bone 

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input.
Chuck

[handirifle]

One thing to keep in mind.  I've been told by guys here and elsewhere, if you "smith" for anyone for pay, you have to have an FFL.  That's what I've been told.

Good luck on your project.

[gunnut69]

JohnT- read and totally agree with your post but would add would add a 'spider' to the list. Works great for working in a shotgun bore with the steady rest and boring bars. 
as to licenses I would speak with ATFE for a of the FFL requirements book and requirements for gunsmiths. At one point they defined a gunsmith who did barrel work as a maker and a manufacturers license was required. Stock making also fell under these requirements. I seem to remember in my ramblings that that may have changed.. If working on your own guns you're likely OK but if working on others weapons an FFL is mandatory for a gunsmith. If you're working for someone else in THEIR shop they need the license. That's how WalMart gets by with those guys in the 'gun department'...

[trotterlg]

I believe the rule reads that if you keep a receiver (or whole gun) overnight you need an FFL.  Larry

[gunnut69]

I was thinking it was if the gun was left in your possession. Still you get the drift.. Also AFTE has in the past altered what they consider a 'gun'. Was defined as a serial numbered receiver but has been used otherwise..  Get the info from their book and if there's a question ask them in writing..

[cap187]

I hear you guys about having an FFL to do gunsmithing for pay.  Working on your own guns you are OK as long as you're not doing an illegal modification.  You can even manufacture a gun for yourself as long as it meets the legal design requirements.

I've got plenty of gun projects of my own to do that would keep me busy for quite awhile as well as general machining ideas that I want to try. 

John T... "Spider", no clue, haven't heard about it.  What is it and what does it do?

What have I been missing all these years? 

Thanks, Chuck

[dan610324]

well I can only speak for myself , I got an 14 x 30 lathe . 

sometimes its to large and clumsy , but often it also will be to small  .
its impossible to tell what size is the best , its all up to your needs .

the ideal solution for me would be one slightly larger and one very much smaller ,
but both my economy and my space say  NOOOOO .

BUT MY OPINION WHEN IT COMES TO QUALITY IS THAT YOU SHOULD FORGET THE CHINESE MACHINES ,
better with an 40-50 year old European or American
there is an manufacturer called weiler, their products are the ultimate in quality . but they are extremely expensive as used machines .

try to find an old school machine , they haven't so many running hours, and they are very well taken care of .

when it comes to tools and accessories it will cost you many times more then the basic machine , its extremely expensive.
but in the long run its still cheaper to buy expensive professional high quality tools .
search on ebay for used tools , when it comes to cutting tools you can have them professional resharpened many many times , they wiill be as new again .

but some things you can buy from china or taiwan , such as toolholders and other accessories as vises and dividing heads .
I do some import for myself at such items , its easy , you could also do it .
if I need some vise for example I buy them directly from the factory, but I buy 5 of them and sell 4 on the swedish ebay , then I got my products for free , maybe even an small profit  ;-))
Im going to order dividing heads and precission vises now , and some other small things .

below here you have 3 addresses that are worth to look at .

www.zhengzhoutools.com

www.vertex-tw.com.tw

www.alibaba.com      this is an b2b site , just use the built in search engine and you will find manufacturers of whatever you want .

many items only cost 20% in china compared to normal retail price , there are even things with larger price difference .

hope you guys will have some use for this info
yours sincerely
Dan Pettersson
Sweden

[John Traveler]

Cap187,

A "spider" is a lathe accessory used to center a workpiece on the turning axis.  An example would be a spider used to center the middle of a barrel in the headstock.  It is a collar with setscrews mounted on the end of the spindle.  Such a device used with a dial indicator will precisely align the barrel bore for chambering, threading, or boring, etc.  It can be used similarly on a steady rest for extra long barrels or for barrels too thick to fit in the headstock spindle.

[gunnut69]

Sorry guys about the lack of explanation of the spider,, JohnT is absolutely right. They are quite handy and I use mine often.. They are also useful in boring a shotgun muzzle for a choke sleeve or to repair damage from a failed choke adjustment.. I haven't been on today 'til now, the lightning has been a bit dangerous..