Author Topic: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin  (Read 2069 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BUTCHER45

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 201
The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« on: August 30, 2007, 11:49:57 AM »
     hello Veral,

     Suppose two identical .452 caliber bullets, say, 260 grains, are traveling at the same velocity of about 925fps.  The only difference is the rifling of the barrels they are fired from.  One being 1 twist in 20 inches, the other being considerably slower whatever that may be.  Say, 1:36 or something like that.  What would the effect of the higher/lower rate of spin on the bullet from the different rifling be upon impact?  I often wonder how much the 1 in 20 twist of my rifle's barrel affects the terminal ballistics of .45 bullets that are going relatively slow with approx. 250grains going about 650-700fps.
     Thanks in advance.



                                                                                BUTCHER45
click here for.45caliberAirgun slideshow

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1675
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2007, 07:39:49 AM »
  A very interesting question.     None that I have been able to determine.

  Before someone asks.   If slightly  different weight bullets are loaded over the same powder charge, POI is the same also.  I tested with I believe 10 grains different in 30 caliber, say 5 of each weight,  and all  bullets landed in the same group.

  Penetration on game and bullet expansion (for jacketed only) in relation to spin is another matter.  A higher spin makes bullets penetrate straighter, this due to greater stability, which is gyroscopic force.   Higher spin causes jacketed bullets to expand faster than a lower spin.  This due to centrifugal force causing the jacket to spread faster. and possibly more heat generated by friction.   Understand that bore roughness, fouling, or any other factor that causes friction heat on the jacket will increase expansion dramatically, to the point of instant blowup on impact, or in flight even.   I haven't been able to see a difference with lead bullets, using 1 in 10 and 1 in 12 30 caliber barrels.  The expansion of cast lead being one piece of metal, is determined by hardness relative to impact velocity.

  I don't know if your expansion photos are related to you question or not, but when testing bullets, dry paper is near equal to concrete in tearing bullets to pieces.  Well soaked is about like animal tissue.
Veral Smith

Offline BUTCHER45

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 201
Re: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2007, 10:15:50 AM »
     The pictures were just to show the affect the bullets had on a standard medium that was available at the time to measure what the rifle could make a bullet do.  The gunshop guys are surprised at the power and I'm curious how much a factor if at all the spin-rate of a cast bullet is on impact.  I'm looking for a stack of phone books to soak and test a variety of bullets with them.

                                                                                                      BUTCHER45
click here for.45caliberAirgun slideshow

Offline calvon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 274
  • Gender: Male
Re: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2007, 12:44:59 PM »
The only important thing that bullet spin does is to gyro stabilize the flight, to prevent yaw and/or tumble. Precious little energy is consumed. If there was significant energy in the spin you would feel a twisting recoil at the moment of firing. The gun would twist in the direction opposite that of the spinning bullet. As to the performance of the bullet in an animal's body, the same — very little effect. A one-in-ten twist, common in high power rifles, means that the bullet makes one rotation for every ten inches of forward travel, or about a turn and a half while going through a deer sized animal.

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1675
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2007, 06:31:59 AM »
Calvins statement, that spin has little effect on game is absolutely correct, so far as the effect of spin itself, but it CAN have a dramatic effect on how the bullet holds together, or performs, or IF it expands at extreme ranges, as I outlined quite clearly above.
Veral Smith

Offline IOWA DON

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 514
Re: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2007, 07:04:27 AM »
When in high school I bought a 7mm Weatherby and shot a few coyotes and other animals with it. The barrel twist rate was 1turn in 12 inches, and exit holes were usually about 1-1/2 inches. My high school classmates talked about their fathers shooting coyotes with .30-06s and that the exit holes were much larger. I thought they were full of it because the 7mm Weatherby had a higher velocity than a .30-06. And I more or less verified velocity by verifying that I got the advertised trajectory to 400 yards. About 10 years later the barrrel was burned out and I had it re-barreled with another barrel in 7mm Weatherby, but with a twist rate of 1 turn in 10 inches. The first coyote I shot with it had a 3 to 4 inch exit hole, as did other coyotes I shot with it. After that barrel burned out I had it re-barreled with a barrel with a 1 in 9 twist and after that barrel burned out had it re-barreled with a barrel again having a 1 in 12 twist. The last barrel was chambered for the faster 7mm STW cartridge. Again the bullets make smaller exit holes. In fact, on broadside shots on antelope, 120-grain Hornaday hollow points (varmint bullets) penetrate completly through the animals and make 1-1/2 inch or so exit holes. It does not seem a bullet would have much rotational energy, but when bullets can explode in air from centripetal force from too fast of twist rates, it does not surprise me that twist rate can influence bullet performance in game. I would think a .223 Remington with a fast twist rate for heavy bullets would cause much faster fragmentation of light bullets than one with a barrel of a regular twist rate. Has anyone ever noticed that?

Offline ND Sharpshooter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 71
Re: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2007, 03:31:42 AM »
Iowa Don,

Once upon a time I had a Ruger #3 in .223.  It was light weight and handy but had a 1 in 7 twist as near as I could measure and SX's would vaporize within 25-30 yards at 2850 fps on warmish days.  I never tried TNT's in it and 64 grainer's worked quite well but the velocity was too low for varmint ranges. 
Never said I didn''t know how to use one.  :wink:

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1675
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 05:19:32 PM »
  What beautiful and informative information you last two have given,       on my cast bullet forum!!!

  But I started it, intentionally, because it's a field that hasn't been discussed much in the gun rags, to my knowledge.  It is not totally irrelivant to cast, in that too much twist does make bullets strip a bit easier at higher velocities, but it has no effect on terminal performance that I have ever determined.
 
  Now enter perhaps a more enlightening factor.  Jacket bore fouling, and rough barrels.  This will primarily be concerning jacketed bullets, but definitely not entirely.  Most shooters, maybe all, simply watch accuracy fall apart to give an indicator of amount of bore fouling.  And, shooters who have owned several guns of one cartridge chambering know that some barrels foul bad enough to lose accuracy much faster than others.
  The problem isn't necessarily,  perhaps entirely is a better word,  that one barrel builds fouling faster than another, but that barrel diameter if truly straight end to end will turn into a reverse choke barrel with minimal fouling.  One that is tapered small at the muzzle, can build up fouling till diameter close to the chamber, where fouling builds fastest, becomes smaller than the muzzle, before it's accuracy falls off.  Roughness of the bore finish isn't necessarily the major factor in fouling either, but it appears that the bore must have a straight smooth surface for the bullet to slide on, which if it contains visible shallow pockets, roughness, or whatever one wants to call it, these relieve bore friction enough that less fouling will be created than in some perfectly smooth bores.  To define that a bit more precisely.  When one has a roughly machined bore and laps it to a partial clean up, he knocks the high spots all to one level, but doesn't touch the low spots.  At the same time, if the lapping is done with an LBT bore lap kit, the bore develops a slight taper, tight at the muzzle.  Such a gun will handle lead just fine at very high velocity, and give minimal jacket fouling, in my experience, while the large at the throat area bore has more room to accumulate fouling bad enough to degrade accuracy.

  Now the last curve ball regarding jacketed bullet terminal performance.  When bores become extremely fouled, long beyond the point where accuracy falls off, bullet jackets can be heated to the melt point on the surface, which causes them to explode on impact with very poor penetration.  Remember that when you talk to backwoodsy people who are complaining about their rifle not killing as well as it used to.  I knew one hunter here who shot 14 deer from his house before running out of shells and buying a box of another brand, weight etc, one of which killed the first deer he hit.  He was so dumb he wouldn't listen when I told him what his real problem was, because a new box of shells had solved the problem.  -------  Another neighbor using an old Springfield 30-06 had a 150 gr bullet blow up on a deers ribs at 100 yards or so.  I measured his bore and found it was fouled to a diameter of .300 just ahead of the chamber.  Pressures were extreme, in that primers were near their pressure limit, and recoil was excessive!!              Another local had shot 6 deer in one season without recovering one, when my wife and I visited them, with a few days of season left.  I scrubbed his bore with bon ami scouring powder on a tight patch, then told him to keep a bit of 3 in 1 oil in the bore and it would kill deer just fine till he could get it properly cleaned.  He shot a deer a day or two later and his bullet went clear through, killing the deer in its tracks.  To my knowledge he still hasn't cleaned the bore but just keeps it oiled.  (An oil film vaporizes when wedges between bullet and bore, keeping the jacket cool so they hold together on impact.  It is a crutch, not a fix.)  So inform others of this problem.  It is far more prevalent than one would think, as I've personally known maybe 20 hunters who have had the problem..
Veral Smith

Offline IOWA DON

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 514
Re: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2007, 05:16:17 AM »
VERAL - Sorry about carrying on about my jacketed bullet experience in the wrong forum. I have a question about too much twist making a cast bullet strip at higher velocities, and leading. I have a Thompson-Center TCR-87 with a .50-140 barrel which was made from a de-militarized .50 BMG barrel. The groove diameter is .507, the land diameter is .491, and the twist is 1-in15 inches. The barrel is not pitted, but does not look like it has a shiny mirror like surface. I've used jacketed and paper patched bullets in it so far and gotten inconsistent 2.5 to 4.0 MOA accuracy. That is for 575 to 625-grain bullets at 1,600 to 1,900 fps. Do you think it would be a good candidate for cast-lubricated bullets of about the same weight and at about the same velocity in regard to striping in the rifling and leading?

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1675
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 06:14:06 PM »
Sure it would be a good cast bullet candidate.  However, your poor accuracy so far indicates that the bore has a problem that needs some lapping attention.

  Get a pack of LBT push through slugs, be sure to ask for 512 caliber, and feel out the barrel.  They will tell you if there are jerks in the rifling, or tight and loose spots, with looseness at the muzzle being the worst offender to accuracy.  This is common when barrels are contoured, because metal stress relief from removing metal causes the barrel to open up where the most metal is removed.  Fire lapping with the LBT lap kit will make it into a match grade barrel.

I would try some lighter bullets, as the BMG rifling is intended to whip those bullets out at a lot higher velocity than you are getting.  I believe Montana Bullet Works has a pretty heavy 512 cal pistol bullet, gas checked, which would prove whether lighter bullets would stabilize better.

 Maybe you shouldn't apologize for chatting about jacketed on my forum.  You might possibly put me on a guilt trip for doing it so often myself!
The reason I'm quite free about jacketed bullet talk is because the more knowledge one has about guns, with any type bullet, the better he will be able to do with lead, because  when both are well understood, one will realize there are many similarities.  Just a bearing metal difference as both are asked to do the same thing, but bearing grip with cast is our biggest concern in getting maximum performance.
Veral Smith

Offline 45x4

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Gender: Male
Re: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2008, 01:48:25 PM »
Let me apologize in advance for dragging up this old topic.  And again for talking jacketed bullets!

I find this topic to be relevant, as well as interesting.

P.O. Ackley, if I recall thought spin had a dramatic effect on game.  He made his own bullets, that were light years ahead of their time, much like Barnes X-bullets of today. 

He used the .220 Swift a bunch, and once said of it, ".....if one thinks the Swift isn't the best deer cartridge made, they haven't tried it".
He used it to cull donkeys in the Grand Canyon as well.

Anyway, his theory was that the killing ability of the Swift, over other, much larger calibers was the effect of spin, translated into hydrostatic shock.
I realize that the time spent inside the animal is small, and the bullet turns only 1.5-2 times, but keep in mind, the frontal area is so small, on a .22 compared to a .30, or .45, that velocity and /or spin must be important to the smaller calibers.

Me?  I much prefer a big bullet, moderate velocity, with a large meplet!!!!   I can eat right up to the hole.

 

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1675
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: The effect of a bullet's rate of spin
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2008, 10:10:11 AM »
    Sorry pal, but I can't forgive you for talking jacketed on my forum, because  I do the same quite freely.  If we don't understand what happens with jacketed and why we will have an awful hard time ever understanding cast.

    However, when talking a 220 swift we are going off into la, la, land compared to the velocity most shooters get with cast, yet, no information should be considered irrelevant.   Most cast shooters also shoot jacketed and should understand all they can about both types.
 
    I believe P.O. Acklys use of high grade well developed bullets is a factor which has to be considered paramount to his performance claims.  After all, he only bothered to make them because varmint bullets wouldn't do what he wanted.  I haven't used a Swift, but have messed with a 223 high twist Ruger quite a bit, and with bullets which hold together enough to penetrate well, the wound is too small for fastest kills at the possible velocities.  More speed, and strong bullets, like P O used would make a world of difference.  I've used the 243 a lot, my wife and I hunting with it exclusively for 20 years, taking a few elk cleanly with it, and many deer.  If the bullet is strong enough to penetrate deep it is a clean killer, but it wounds a bit to large for the fastest kills if the bullets are real fast.  I can see where the Swift's smaller caliber and higher velocity would be about perfect.  But with either, Texas heart shots or any hit that demands heavy penetration capability are absolutely out! 

   The swift fouls rapidly if the bore isn't perfect, and heats it's bullets severely, which demands strong jackets to hold them together.  Strong jackets well warmed, translates into fairly large mushrooms, if the bullet has integrity enough to hold together, and deadly killing performance.           So, it could all be considered  irrelevant to cast performance, except for the fact that no knowledge is irrelevant when trying to understand bullet peformance.
Veral Smith