.223 vs 5.56 in Handy Rifles

[tstetz]

Okay, I know the differences between the .223 and 5.56 as far as pressures and chamber leade, my question is does anyone know if the Handi Rifles will handle 5.56 okay? I realize they're chambered for .223, not 5.56 but I also know that many guys shoot the rounds interchangeably. I'm just curious if the Handi's can handle the higher pressures.

I have a 5.56 chambered AR and it'd be nice to know I can interchange ammo between the guns if need be if I pick up a .223 Superlight barrel.

[LaOtto222]

H&R advises not to use 5.56 (military) rounds in their guns. The throats are long in a Handi rifle so that should not be a problem. I think the higher pressures are a problem and the primers are a potential problem too. The higher pressures may stick cases in the chamber, not so much of a problem now that they have extractors now and not ejectors. They may pop open the action, I have heard of this happening. Handis have a reputation of shooting mid power loads best, but not always. Military primers are harder than civilian primers so that they do not "slam fire" in auto mode. Now that I have said all of that, my Brother-In-Law was in the Army and he has given me a few rounds of 5.56 ball ammo. One of the reasons I got the .223 in the first place was to take advantage of the free ammo. I have fired a few of those military rounds in my .223 Handi with little problems (see the following). There was very poor accuracy, the action did pop open once (but only once out of 25 or so rounds, I may not have shut it good on that one?), I got good primer strikes and my ejector popped them right out. Since I got poor accuracy, I have not shot any more. I now have a Stevens 200 in .223 and will burn up the rest in it. So use Military ball ammo at your own risk and do not be surprised if you can not hit the broad side of a barn with them.

[Saloon slug]

Most manufacturers dont recommend using 5.56 in their guns. The mil rounds are at the very high end of pressure. With the 1/9 twist in the new barrels accuracy should be ok. M855 ball is a 62gr spire point boat tail listed at just over 3,000 fps out of a M16.

[LaOtto222]

You may be correct Saloon Slug about the accuracy issue; mine is a 1 - 12" twist.

[trotterlg]

H&R also recommends against shooting hand loads from their rifles, and that is universally ignored around here, so I guess you just choose what recommendations to follow and what not to.  Larry

[quickdtoo]

H&R doesn't recommend against shooting handloads, but they do recommend specifically not to use ammo that isn't made to ANSI and SAAMI specs which milsurp isn't, but handloads on the other hand should be since published data is made to follow SAAMI standards. They state that they assume no liability/responsibilty for injury damages if you use handloaded or non SAAMI/ANSI ammo. But state that under no circumstance should 5.56 NATO ammo be used in their 223 Remington firearms!!

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/documents/manuals/HR_NEF_HANDI_RIFLE_MANUAL.pdf

This firearm was manufactured by H&R 1871, LLC, and has
been tested using proof and service ammunition that meets
Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturers Institute
(SAAMI) & American National Standards Institute (ANSI)
performance standards.
H&R 1871, LLC assumes no liability or responsibility for injury or
damages resulting from misuse, neglect, alterations, the use of
parts not of our manufacture or the use of ammunition that is
faulty, handloaded, reloaded or not made to the above standards. 

[tstetz]

Hmm, I'm going to have to look up the specs on the Wolf stuff I have. I have a case of it. I believe its loaded as .223, not 5.56. It's ball but that's fine for plinking anyway. If that stuff works out okay its as cheap or cheaper than using GI surplus anyway.

[Hammerspur]

My .223 HB Handi is my best shooter, usually a one-holer. Bought in '93,  it's the low-rent version of the Ultra-Varmint having blonde pallet wood stocks rather than the similarly toned laminates.... all it has ever shot is 5.56 milsurp. No auto opening, misfires, extraction/ejection problems, suspicious primer appearences or other bad omens ever occured.

                                        

I don't mean to sound reckless or oppositional. Fact is I was unaware of the proscriptive advice in this regard at the time. I stocked up on non-corrosive, reloadable surplus in a big way. I do recall some discussion of same going on in the magazines at that time, but also remember several manufacturers "Harrumphing"  that it was of little concern.

Although I'm completely set to reload for caliber this rifle, my sole .223,  has been a paper shooter and plinker... knocking off a few hundred rounds per season, never yet exhausted the milsurp on hand.
Considering performance (accuracy) I've never felt a need to buy even 1 box of commercial ammo for it... did consider buying one of those dies ("Convert-A-Ball" from The Hanned Line) for nipping back the FMJ spire tip to a narrow, exposed lead, flat point for comparative impact experiments though.

Times do change and H&R has much to be cautious about in terms of product liability given their history of litigation induced reorganization.

[greyling]

My AR having friend gave me cases from wwb 5.56 I use in my ultra handi and reload them using .223 dies and varget loaded like it was for a 223. works fine, though there is not quite as much case volume as in a 223. If I find some .223 brass laying around I will switch over to that, but I'm not paying for new brass.

[quickdtoo]

greyling, I don't know if you actually load ammo in the way you stated that I edited out, but if you do,  it won't be posted here.

Tim

[greyling]

Quick, the lee reloading guide says put in 26.5 gains of varget in a .223 case for a 50 grain bullet. the 5.56 case holds about 25.8 or 9 grains before it starts to overflow. thus, filling the case puts in less that the recommended load. and while the pressures may be a little off, velocity reads like a reduced power load.  the sb2 receiver is very capable of handling it. so while it may have sounded like an irresponsible, off the cuff load, it is a perfectly acceptable, and easy easy easy to describe. I worked up to dropping 25.7 grains in, it basically fills the case up, and I get good results running about 2575 fps. But nobody should blindly accept reloading data, use it as a starting place and develop your own load.
I am not careless, and have no intention of blowing my, or anybody else's face off. he asked if anybody runs 5.56 ammo through their rifle, I answered. it's like running regular gas in a car made for midgrade. not the greatest idea maybe, but not disastrous.

[quickdtoo]

You have to realize there are thousands of readers here, it only takes one newbie handloader to follow that advice and get hurt.

Tim

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

"the 5.56 case holds about 25.8 or 9 grains before it starts to overflow. I worked up to dropping 25.7 grains in, it basically fills the case up."

This one has been on my mind since first reading it yesterday.
I suppose it just follows some folks mentality that "more is better", but it's still troubling thinking that there might be someone out there thinking that this procedure might be worth trying. After all, despite the warning from H&R/NEF concerning using 5.56 NATO in their .223 Rem. Handi Rifles, there are still some here advocating that using the 5.56 NATO in the Handi is "not a problem".
I've loaded some compressed loads, but following the guidelines of manuals in so doing. The above description is far from the "normal" powder compression load, "basically fills the case up" would cross that line of "normal" and put it into the excessively compressed load, one that most reloading manuals warn against.
After reading the various warnings in the manuals that I have, plus warnings on several reloading web sites concerning excessively compressed loads, this type of warning statement might be appropriate to add to this thread...

WARNING:Heavily compressed powder charges (those that are fill more than 110% of the available case volume with the used bullet seating depth) should be avoided. The results of excessively compressed charges might include cartridge overall lengths that continue to grow after the loaded round is taken from the bullet seating die. This is caused by the elastic nature of the compressed charge trying to return to its original volume. This means when the internal upward force of the compressed charge exceeds the strength of the case neck to grip the bullet the powder will slowly force the bullet out of the case. This can lead to jammed firearms and erratic ballistics, as well as very poor accuracy. None of these are desirable attributes.

Bill