Author Topic: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses  (Read 2965 times)

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Offline JJHACK

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Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« on: March 03, 2008, 11:05:37 AM »
The use of solids for recreational sport hunting.

There was a time when the use of a solid was the preferred projectile for dangerous game hunting. This was for the most part due to the construction of all bullets during this era. Cup and core crimped together bullets were the only thing available. Plenty of Professional Hunters saw them crumble and fail to penetrate to the needed depth, or fail on bad angle shots with heavy bone or thick skin. The trend was to move towards solids that would stay intact and penetrate straight through. For many PH’s the plan was to shoot only solids, and many PH’s preferred a soft point first, followed by a solid to hit the escaping animal at any angle and provide the most penetration possible from the given cartridge. It was the best plan available at the time. The important part to take away from this, is not that the solids offered better performance, but rather they simply could be depended upon much better then the failure prone soft points manufactured back then.

This is a good plan still followed religiously by many PH’s today. Professional Hunters much like other experienced hunters know that a softpoint provides significantly more killing potential with its more explosive expansion effects on soft tissue. The softs are followed in the magazine with a solid for the insurance shots on departing game.
On thick skinned game like Elephant, Rhino, Hippo, etc. the solids are prudent as the heavy skin of these animals tends to take the steam out of softs, or simply destroy them upon impact.

Today there are some amazing projectiles available with newer and very well proven technology like Bonded core bullets that have the copper and lead core chemically bonded together to all but eliminate the separation of jacket from the core. Then there is Partitioned and bonded bullets as in the Aframe, partitioned and bonded front’s with solid copper rear sections as in the bear claws. Solid copper bullets from Barnes, and GS custom. Plus the many new bonded non partitioned bullets like the Woodleigh, and Interbonds.

There is good reason that the market is filled with high tech soft point bullets. They are the superior killer of all but the thick skinned big game. Solids have become a kind of last resort for hunting. Sure they have exceptional penetration, but completely lack the impact effect, and explosive internal damage that quality softpoints provide.

Solids can penetrate and damage significant tissue, but they lack the outright crumple effect that softs have unless part of the central nervous system is damaged. Solids today are a last resort, not usually an acceptable first choice. Defaulting to a solid is a very good choice for a bullet that might fail. What I mean by that is, any bullet made can have unusual performance at any given time. What that performance may be is, separation of jacket and core, bent like a banana, loss of rear core, complete disintegration of the projectile. Or loss of the petals in a monometal bullet design, and the default to a 2/3 weight solid projectile.

If you accept that a bullet failure will eventually happen, what default condition is it that you prefer? For me it’s the default to the solid. At least with this default, if the aim was true the penetration will go through the point of impact desired. A failure of any other type provides far too many unknowns. Speaking for myself, I fear the unknown results far more then what I do know. However this example is again a last resort “default”condition, not the desired first choice.

I wrote a story some years ago about hunting bears with handguns. During this period of my life I was the wildlife manager for Weyerhaeuser, and also guiding bear hunters. I took about 30 or so hunters a year in Both Washington and Idaho. We were killing about 40 bears a year in damage control and sport hunting. Over a 12 year period that is a lot of bears taken. I had quite a following of Policemen from the Midwest. In Idaho you could legally hunt with anything 22 centerfire or larger. So many of the officers wanted to see and experience taking a human sized animal with their carry guns. One of the most interesting turn of events during this time was how I was kind of dragged into the hype of shooting heavy hard cast bullets in my 44 magnum. I was overwhelmed by all the magazine stories about massive penetration, and the huge animals killed with these big 300 grain heavy hardcast bullets.

Over the next few years, I shot lots of bears with 300 grain Wilson Hardcast bullets at maximum power from my Ruger Redhawk. I also partnered with a little testing for Randy Garrett. Randy has been a friend of mine for probably 20 plus years now. I was shooting lots of bears with his bullets as well. I was stunned that many bears would simply hunch up for a split second and then run off as if I missed them. Some just ran away with absolutely no reaction at all! How could this be the most powerful load possible in the 44 magnum with the greatest penetration, and not just crumple these bears? After a number of bears just ran off, requiring rather long follow ups I went back to the original 240 grain hollow points I was using before these heavy hardcast bullets.

What a difference the experimentation made! The way the hollow points stunned and crumpled bears was night and day different. They did not exit at any frequency, but they had a massively different impact effect. They were clearly the better choice for smaller thin skinned big game say under 500-750 pounds. From a .44 magnum the Garrett hardcast bullets, would provide far better penetration, and do things no softpoint could dream of on the heaviest of big game. They would allow a smaller handgun like the 44 magnum to harvest the biggest of big game, JDJones has killed about everything with a 44 mag using hard cast bullets. As have a number of folks with Randys bullets and loads. It’s not always the prudent choice, to use solids when softs provide such a dramatic difference in performance. Much like my experience with the bears. They would certainly kill anything I hit with them, but it was not the crumple effect most big game and especially dangerous game hunters prefer.

I spoke with Randy about how crazy this hardcast bullet trend had become. I Said to him that I too was sucked into the thought process of shooting the most “powerful” load available in my 44 mag. Then I saw the light and returned to the 240 grain hollow points. He agreed that the hardcast bullets have their place but not for thin skinned or smaller species of big game. They did however allow non typical weapons to get the kind of penetration that was well beyond anything previously available for them.

The hard cast and solid bullets when shot from smaller cartridges can outpenetrate much bigger cartridges using soft points. This does not mean they are equal or better killers, quite the contrary. Shooting clean though game without expansion as stated in the beginning of the text is a last resort design. It’s the right direction to push lesser cartridges to another level of penetration, but at no time can they be compared to an expanding bullet from a bigger cartridge. Penetration with a blunt bullet at lower velocity tends to push organs out of the way rather then disrupt them with a permanent wound cavity (Dr. Fackler proved this on live sedated animals in a lab for then US Military) This is also one of the reasons so many Game Departments across the country mandate the use of expanding bullets for hunting. It's also why so many well respected Professional hunters do not want them used for general hunting and only allow them for Elephant, Rhino, and Hippo.

So by today’s standards with the premium bullets available I don’t care to see anyone use solids in my hunting camps for anything less then thick skinned game. Shooting clean through multiple animals in a herd is not in anyone’s best interest, nor is shooting with solids only to have the big animal run off with far less internal damage then a premium soft point would have provided.
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Offline deltecs

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2008, 12:04:20 PM »
Excellent explanation on today's bullets for game.  If one reads your post carefully, the unescapable conclusion is that even with expanding bullets then, sectional density does have a large factor in penetration.  As you noted, a smaller caliber with hard cast bullets may outpenetrate a larger bore expanding bullet, but not do much internal damage.  Given 2 expanding bullets then with both expanding to the same diameter, the one with the higher sectional density will penetrate further and inflict more damage at comparable impact velocities.  Take the Barnes X bullets designed to expand to a preset diameter for bore size.  If the X bullets expand to the same diameter as designed, then the bullet with more sectional density will have more momentum.  Sectional density is relative to momentum, thus the higher sectional density bullet at impact velocity will have more momentum for straight line penetration.  I think too many people equate bullet energy to be the most determinate factor in a bullets performance.  I disagree as I think it is sectional density and momentum that ensure straight line penetration, more than a bullets velocity or energy.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

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Offline JJHACK

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2008, 01:22:41 PM »
Without question Muzzle energy is the least effective means of measuring any lethal performance.

Sectional Density is only relevant when comparing bullets of identical diameter, and construction, fired at the same speed. A TSX with a lower SD then a Bonded core Swift Aframe of the same caliber will outpenetrate it 100% of the time. In the 375HH he 270gr TSX will outpenetrate the 300gr Aframe and even the 350 Woodleigh everytime. Even though those heavier bullets have a much higher SD.

Another thing to consider is that the SD is a calculation based on the prefired bullets length and weight. When you consider that a Softpoint bullet at the instant of impact has a radical shape change( shorter) then how can SD be a factor with such a huge unknown ingredient after impact? This SD concept is a bit of a paradox. The whole point or interest in SD is the internal ballistics of penetration, yet the first 1/4" of penetration adds an enormous change to the formula when the shape is changed as the mushroom develops.

So SD can be applied to bullets of identical construction. In other words in .308 diameter the 180 grain bullet has a higher SD then the 165grain. So on paper in theory the 180 should penetrate further if both are driven to the same speed. The reality is that the 165 will be faster from the same cartridge. When velocity is higher it will compensate for SD to some degree.

Sectional Density must always be an apples to apples comparison. There cannot be any deviation between them, except for the SD number.
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Offline deltecs

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2008, 06:07:18 PM »
JJ, I agree to an extent.  Sectional density is product of weight to diameter, not length of bullet.  All bullets having the same bore and weight will have the same sectional density, regardless of bullet shape.  With bullets of the same construction type and bore, the bullet having more weight will out penetrate bullets having less.  For a 150 gr .308 bullet to equal the momentum of a 200 gr .308 on impact, the velocity must be much higher.  The 150 gr must impact at 3173 fps to equal the momentum of the 200 gr at 2400 fps.  Naturally energy must be much higher for the 150 gr to penetrate to the same depth.  3354 ft/pds compared to 2558 ft/pds for the 200 gr.  It must follow then, that a bullet having higher sectional density of the same type of construction, with all other factors equal, will penetrate farthest and with less deflection. 
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline JJHACK

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2008, 06:51:29 PM »
Agreed it's weight to diameter, however your gonna end up with length as part of that function because diameter cannot change in each caliber. As weight goes up.........so does the length.

One statement I have to strongly disagree with is this:

"With bullets of the same construction type and bore, the bullet having more weight will out penetrate bullets having less"

This is no longer true with the TSX, the faster bullet ** usually** penetrates more. The TSX bullets all open to the same(per bore) diameter so the one going faster wins. Barnes has shown this with 100% consistancy now. They are even suggesting the use of the 270 TSX over the 300 TSX for buffalo based solely on depth of penetration. 2550fps for the 300grain and 2850 for the 270 grain. The 270's penetrate to amazing depths with the additional 300fps velocity.

One other thing regarding the weight to diameter ratio. Lets take a Swift Aframe for example. It will increase in diameter to double or even greater diameter.  This additional resistance caused by the greater diameter trumps the starting Sectional density nearly every time.  In many cases lower velocity which causes limited expansion will have an increased effect in depth of penetration.

It's a complicated mix of influences that all add up to some result that really cannot be fully calculated with a formula. It is better understood when you see hundreds of animals shot and certain consistent results begin to shine through. A perfect example of this is that a 270 grain Swift Aframe from my 375HH will very frequently end up under the skin of a Zebra or blue wildebeest when shot more the 150 yards away broadside. The bullets will be predictably under the skin with a very obvious bulge under the exit side skin. This 270 grain bullet is going 2800 plus FPS from my rifle.

I have seen a dozen or more 165grain 30/06 TSX bullet exit Zebra and Wildebeest in the same conditions many many times now. The theory of momentum and Sectional Density are all great fun to banter with around the campfire, or on this forum. However there are things going on when the projectile hits the tissue that calculations cannot touch, you just gotta see it enough times to get a feel for what is going on. Part of the problem with calculations is that no two shots can ever be exactly the same, and calculations are always going to provide the same answer when the entries are the same. 

Even though I have an engineering education(electrical) and I feel I should be able to figure out everything with a calculator, there are more unknowns then knowns when trying to calculate internal ballistics. Hence the endless debates with so many individual opinions from all the different experiences of so many people.
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Offline deltecs

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2008, 07:21:46 PM »
JJ, I couldn't agree with you more on this last post.  It is funny though that I too have an engineering degree in electrical.  Electrical Engineering Technology.  Retired and living the good life in Alaska.  Homogeneous expanding bullets have changed impact ballistics from the old normal copper jacketed lead cores.  I've not used them and don't have any first hand experience with them.  I've been reluctant based on the criticism when first hit the market, but from what I've read since then, will give them a try. 
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline efremtags

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2008, 05:22:31 AM »
I agree that the old rules of thumb no longer apply with different metallurgy at work with bullet construction. Barnes proved this in the early 90's with the the X-bullet.

With all things being equal, momentum is based strictly on weight and velocity (P = mV). A heavy bullet will penetrate better than a lighter one because it is more difficult to slow down the momentum.

With all things being equal, a bullet with a wider frontal diameter will impart more resistance, therefore slow down faster than a narrow bullet.

SD comparisons are not as meaningful as they used to be as ammo is not made the same way. All Copper round is lighter and longer than lead, so a 165 all Cu round will be longer and lighter than a 180gr lead, but will probably preform better.

What is no longer clear as it used to be is that with better bullet construction, it is possible to have wide frontal channel and deep penetration because the bullets can be driven with more momentum and maintain original weight (faster small bullets produces comparable results to slower heavy bullets) and wider frontal area (bullet mushrooms).

I think a general rule of thumb should be use a bullet no tougher than necessary for the game you are hunting. If you use a tough bullet like a TSX, X-bullet or the Federal version of the X-bullet (name escapes me at the moment) you may be disappointed on smaller game because you will get the momentum without the expansion, which is basically a 30 caliber solid  or whatever it is you are shooting. Nosler startded this trend with a sacrificial front end (compromise of wide frontal diameter while maintaining weight)

With todays SPs, it is no linger necessary to shoot larger caliber or heavy for caliber ammo, at the tradeoff of very expensive bullets. I think that is why the 30-06 and similar calibers are more relevant today then ever, because the new ammo keeps them performing beyond the original design intent.

I think this does not hold true for pistol calibers since the velocity band is so small, it is difficult to improve on the momentum, because it takes a lot to velocity change to effect the momentum, and that power is simply not viable in a 8" revolver. Also there is no need for further expansion as you already have a wide diameter bullet to begin with. I believe that hardcast ammo (essentially a solid) work well here because you already have a wide diameter frontal area (assume .429 is smallest revolver suitable for hunting) and you have enough momentum to penetrate deeply. I will not compare pistols to rifles as there is very little they have in common in terminal performance. The key limitation in this tradeoff is you will rarely see the shock effect you get with a mushroom round, but at the the benefit of having almost guaranteed an exit wound which provided 2 holes to bleed from (for trees stand hunters, the 2nd hole is lower which is a huge benefit). Also, wound channel is near proportional to impact velocity, so shoot the lighest weight ammo for your caliber to compensate for this, (Dont use 300gr when 240 will do). Also wide metplat is essential.

I am not sure this can be experienced yet with large diameter slow rifle calibers (45-70 or similar sub 2200FPS rifles) as the bullet manufacturers have not really designed a tough low weight bullet than can be driven at high velocity. The Leverloution is the beginning of this trend, but they are not available for hand loading, and the factory ammo is not loaded near the calibers potential. I think this may change, but for now I am using a heavy soft point and a heavy hard cast depending on the pursuits and I will have to live with the limitations of each. I think a 300GR softpoint at 2400-2500FPS would be an awesome round to use on animals up to Elk size. 

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2008, 06:02:07 AM »
If this has any interest to you the way it does to me. Then you need to search out Dr. Facklers research and you will see that solid bullets push things out of the way and create a very small permanent wound channel. The "permanent wound channel" is what kills big game. Hollow points and expanding bullets create massive wound channels. Now if you understand anatomy at all angles and have impeccable shot placement under all conditions, which will allow you to manage structural, or CNS hits then the solids can stop game just fine. If you're simply an average sportsman shooting for the chest cavity............Wow these are a huge mistake to use, I know.....I've been there and struggled quite a bit.

There is far too much evidence to back this up.  Not just my personal experience seeing the differences first hand for a living on 100's if not over 1000 big game animals.

Why does the military require ball ammo?  Limited trauma to tissue
Why do almost every F&G dept. regulations across the country require expanding type bullets?  Because non-expanding bullets don't provide the needed trauma

Solids, FMJ, and hardcast are a last resort to make a limited performance round provide the penetration needed. Unfortunately penetration is not the only factor in killing performance. killing is easy, crumpling is another story!
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Offline efremtags

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2008, 07:18:46 AM »
I agree on the limitations, but the comparison to FMJ is inaccurate as it neglects the effect bullet shape has on wound cavity. I agree totaly that a FMJ spitzer or roundnose design are inadequate.

However take a 25 caliber rifle spitzer that weighs 120Gr. If operating well, it will expand to about 2x diameter. Take a 44-45 cal. WFN with a Metplat of about .35". When slightly flattened, it will distort to about caliber diamater (near .5"). All else being equal, the only difference is impact velocity. Take that out of the equation, it should not matter one is expanding and one is sold. I believe a .30cal WFN would be an absimal failure but in a 44-50cal they are effective.

No bullet is perfect, a barnes X-bullet may not expand on deer, a winchester siverpoint would blow up on a buffalo shoulder, a hardcast WFN will work well in both regards. I believe the versatility and the predictable performance is what makes the bullet work well.

I have personally examined about 300 bodies of venison and wild bore as I butcher game as a side job during the season. From experience, the most devastating wounds are 12G slug, extremely destructive because of the wide diameter (1"+) but they almost never exit, and I have seen many animals lost when bone was hit (front shoulder). I have seen about 30-40 shot with hardcast ammo in various guns from 10mm to 45-70. The higher velocity loads have impressive wound channels with better than 90% 2 exit hole performance. I have had a few rare instances where we find the bullet usually lodges in the farside shoulder bone. Typical shape is flattened with a few % weight loss, but not too distorted. About 30%  of the game I see killed are shot with bow, and tissue damage is very impressive for a devise that imparts less energy than a BB gun.Again not a fare apples to apples comparison, but food for thought.

I will look up some references regarding bullet impact speed vs would channel effect. I believe a lot of what you have experienced may be attributed to too heavy a bullet for caliber which minimizes the tissue trauma because impact velocity was too low. This would be comparable to shooting a tough A-frame style bullet at an ELK and 900 yards. I am sure the bullet performance would result in a dead animal, but your litmus test of tissue damage and animal reaction would be very different than if the animal were shot at 100yards.





Offline deltecs

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2008, 10:44:12 AM »
I was thinking in my recliner last night after reading the posts.  I've discounted over the years a bullets terminal effect from spin on tissue.  I think this was based, as others have said, with regard to expanding mushroom lead bullets.  With the design of Barnes X bullets and the flower shaped petals, the radical and extremely fast spin of these bullets, must rip and tear flesh, much like a wood screw.  It takes substantial energy to put twist on a bullet, so that centrifugal energy is used to cut, rip, and tear tissue, as it is moved forward due momentum.  I can understand how a bullet of this type would penetrate further than a typical smooth mushroom bullet, that spun through tissue without ripping it free from attachment to muscle or vitals, with relatively little centrifugal energy expended to assist penetration.  I think the bullets rotation with these flower shaped petals spinning, probably have more to do with penetration than momentum alone.  For example, a top must spin with centrifugal force acting upon it, but it doesn't progress toward the fulcrum, so the energy expended is rotational only.  I must give them a try.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline Grumulkin

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2008, 01:12:51 PM »
Quote
Why does the military require ball ammo?  Limited trauma to tissue

Actually, this isn't true.  Snipers in the U. S. Army, for instance, use Sierra match (i.e., BTHP) bullets and not ball ammo (see the book The Ultimate Sniper by John Plaster).

In the book, The Perfect Shot by "Doctari" Robertson there is a great discussion on the virtues of velocity, sectional density, kinetic energy and momentum.

The bottom line, the bullet has to reach the vitals.  With some bullet weights and calibers used on certain game animals, only a solid would reach the vitals.  When an expanding bullet for whatever reason can reach the vital organs it's going to do more damage and cause death more quickly than a solid.

Of course there are instances where the cartridge used is so much more powerful than needed for a given animal that a solid would work fine and would be perhaps preferable to an expanding bullet.  An example would be the 375 H&H Magnum.  If this cartridge were to be used on animals like jackal, caracal and steenbok, I would think a solid would be enough and would do less damage to the meat and/or cape.

The photo is of the exit wound of a steenbok shot with a 340 Weatherby Magnum.  The individual who loaded the Barnes XLC bullets read on the box that they were "solid" copper and mistakenly thought they were nonexpanding solid bullets.  The taxidermist will have quite a bit of work to do on the cape.  The Barnes XLC bullet, by the way, is merely a Barnes X bullet with a special coating.  A steenbok is about the size of a large dog.  I've shot a couple of feral cats, a rabbit or two and some groundhogs with Barnes TSX bullets out of a 30/06 and can testify that the really DO expand on very light animals.


Offline jwp475

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2008, 01:13:32 PM »


  The idea that hard cast bullets with a wide meplat are only adequate for giving the needed penetration is only partialy true. The part that most do not realize is that they also produce large diameter wound channels and lots of internalk damage.

 Here is an exit wound in a hog that was produced by a 454 shooting the Double Tap 400 WLFN bullet. TThere was no phot taken of the damage to the internal organs, but I can attest to the fact that the damage was Horrific





 The load





 The next picture is, an exit wound in the rib cage of a 7X6 Bull Elk and again there was no photo taken of the internal organs, I can testify to the fact that the damage was greater than the damage that was caused by a 180 grain from a 300 winn mag, and this wound was produced by the 500 JRH shootin a wide flat nose hard cast at 950 FPS.






 Anyone that believes that these style bullets do not leave large wound channels and great internal damage is saddly mistaken...

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Softs & Solids thoughts on their uses
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2008, 02:34:36 AM »
   I agree jwp. Another myth is that a fmj spitzer from a .30-06 leaves an exit hole the size of an entrance hole. Golf ball and upwards size exit wounds are not rare. When the target adds bone and connective tissue bullets perform much different that shooting into a block of gelatin. Anyone ever shot a bird with a .22 lr high velocity?